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After an 18-year flying hiatus, looking for the right M20 model to buy


Ed de C.

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A shameless plug for a Missile. 
 

I recently purchased one with TKS and could not be happier. 
 

6hr+ range LOP up high (~165ktas on 11.5gph), or burn gas and go fast down low. I’ve brought mine up to FL210, and while climb rate wasn’t great up there, I could have gone higher. I have operated it several times in CO and was impressed by the T/O performance, even at altitude. 
 

Great useful load (1000+) and plenty of baggage room. The extra length on the long bodies is in the baggage compartment, not in the passenger cabin. Even traveling with my wife and a small child (lots of baby gear), we have had plenty of room. 
 

Substantially lower entrance cost than an Ovation means lower stress when the inevitable post acquisition maintenance item comes up (no matter how good the pre buy). If the extra $100k is burning a hole in your pocket, you can always throw it at a great panel.


I considered a Bravo but the overhauls are substantially more expensive. I wasn’t comfortable gambling on a mid-time engine after talking with several mechanics. Furthermore, with wife and child I knew my time in the FL’s would be limited. IO550 widely considered the best ‘legacy’ engine in GA. I’ve had 2 planes with IO550s and the missile takes the cake for me. 

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7 minutes ago, Brotherman said:

A shameless plug for a Missile. 
 

I recently purchased one with TKS and could not be happier. 
 

6hr+ range LOP up high (~165ktas on 11.5gph), or burn gas and go fast down low. I’ve brought mine up to FL210, and while climb rate wasn’t great up there, I could have gone higher. I have operated it several times in CO and was impressed by the T/O performance, even at altitude. 
 

Great useful load (1000+) and plenty of baggage room. The extra length on the long bodies is in the baggage compartment, not in the passenger cabin. Even traveling with my wife and a small child (lots of baby gear), we have had plenty of room. 
 

Substantially lower entrance cost than an Ovation means lower stress when the inevitable post acquisition maintenance item comes up (no matter how good the pre buy). If the extra $100k is burning a hole in your pocket, you can always throw it at a great panel.


I considered a Bravo but the overhauls are substantially more expensive. I wasn’t comfortable gambling on a mid-time engine after talking with several mechanics. Furthermore, with wife and child I knew my time in the FL’s would be limited. IO550 widely considered the best ‘legacy’ engine in GA. I’ve had 2 planes with IO550s and the missile takes the cake for me. 

What's your fuel burn at ~ 10K in cruise?  Thanks.

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If you can find an Acclaim for 300amu…

Schedule an immediate PPI…

Don’t get your hopes up until the PPI is finished… 

:)

1) Decide if the Long Body has value for you…

2) Decide if you prefer turbo or not…

3) Find the available LBs that match…

4) If mid body is what you like…

5) Turbo adds to the fun…. Go Rocket!

6) If NA is a requirement… Go Missile!

7) If you prefer more power over less power… Go Standing Ovation!

8) Does the plane have to be turn key ready?

9) Is this a project to make the perfect forever-plane?

Which ever Mooney you select… will make a great forever-plane…

There is a really nice M20E with pictures of four adults flying in it around here somewhere… she was named gypsy Rose…. Bob, Her pilot flew West but she is still here…. :)

 

When I have it to do over…. I will go 310hp Acclaim!

There probably are not many Acclaim forever-planes around…. :)
 

(note: a forever Ovation is plenty good enough…)

Note about being human… after time off from flying… expect a few warm up laps…  Transition Training with a Mooney Savvy CFII is worth the money… we have a list of them around here somewhere…

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

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On 12/24/2022 at 6:50 AM, Fly Boomer said:

That was one of my rationalizations for turbo vs non-turbo (the mid-life exhaust part, not the "extra" part).

If i understand this statement that midlife exaust vs cylinders (lycoming vs continental)...yeah replacing both major sections of exaust (cost me about 1100 )is about equal to r and r on ONE cylinder.Every big bore continental ive owned required multiple cyl replacements

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2 hours ago, thinwing said:

If i understand this statement that midlife exaust vs cylinders (lycoming vs continental)...yeah replacing both major sections of exaust (cost me about 1100 )is about equal to r and r on ONE cylinder.Every big bore continental ive owned required multiple cyl replacements

Actually, when I was rationalizing my purchase, I was comparing the overhaul cost of all the exhaust components of a N/A airplane vs a turbo.  Regarding the cylinders, Mike Busch put something like 5,000 hours on one of the engines in his 310 (big-bore Continental TSIO-520).  That said, there is nothing wrong with running hard and hot if you are willing to replace cylinders more often.  To quote Mike again, he considers cylinders to be just another wear item like a starter or vacuum pump.  They just bolt on the engine, so replacing one if you have to is not that big a deal.

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Guys - Your comments have been great for helping me sort out options and priorities.  

Focusing in on the Short Body v. Long Body attribute, where exactly is the extra space in the Long Body?  I think it's an extra 10-inch plug aft of the rear seats, but please correct me.   In other words, in terms of the space for the 4 humans, there is no difference between the two.  Or, did they move the rear seats back and provide more legroom for the rear passengers in the LB?

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41 minutes ago, Ed de C. said:

Guys - Your comments have been great for helping me sort out options and priorities.  

Focusing in on the Short Body v. Long Body attribute, where exactly is the extra space in the Long Body?  I think it's an extra 10-inch plug aft of the rear seats, but please correct me.   In other words, in terms of the space for the 4 humans, there is no difference between the two.  Or, did they move the rear seats back and provide more legroom for the rear passengers in the LB?

Short body takes you up through the E Model

Mid body takes up up to the K model

Long body takes you up through the Acclaim (TN)

 

The extra room between the Mid and Long bodies is in the baggage area, but as they get newer (1994 and on),  Mooney used better, more durable materials for the side panels and headliners.

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2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Short body takes you up through the E Model

Mid body takes up up to the K model

Long body takes you up through the Acclaim (TN)

 

The extra room between the Mid and Long bodies is in the baggage area, but as they get newer (1994 and on),  Mooney used better, more durable materials for the side panels and headliners.

Mid bodies have an extra 5" rear seat legroom plus an extra 5" baggage space. 

Long bodies were stretched another couple of feet, divided between baggagebspace and a longer cowling to accommodate a six-cylinder Continental engine instead of a four-cylinder Lycoming.

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10 minutes ago, Hank said:

Mid bodies have an extra 5" rear seat legroom plus an extra 5" baggage space. 

Long bodies were stretched another couple of feet, divided between baggagebspace and a longer cowling to accommodate a six-cylinder Continental engine instead of a four-cylinder Lycoming.

I agree on the six cylinder on the long body, but it was stretched for a six cylinder Porsche in 1988 on the M20L, then a Lycoming in 1989 on a M20M and then a Continental in 1994 on a M20R and then again with the Continental in 1999 on an M20S and in 2006 on an M20TN.

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Just now, LANCECASPER said:

I agree on the six cylinder on the long body, but it was stretched for a six cylinder Porsche in 1988 on the M20L, then a Lycoming in 1989 on a M20M and then a Continental in 1994 on a M20R and then again with the Continental in 1999 on an M20S and in 2006 on an M20TN.

How many cylinders in the M20K?

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23 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Except for Rocket and Missile.

Rockets are modified Ks.

Missiles are modified Js.

Both are mid-bodies. Long bodies began with the M20-L with Porsche engine, most were destroyed by a hurricane while waiting for replacement with Continental engines.

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Short body

  • Exterior Height: 8 ft 3 in
  • Wing Span: 35 ft
  • Length: 23 ft 2 in

Mid body

  • Exterior Height: 8 ft 4 in
  • Wing Span: 36 ft 5 in
  • Length: 24 ft 8 in

Long body

  • Exterior Height: 8 ft 4 in
  • Wing Span: 36 ft 5 in
  • Length: 26 ft 9 in

 

 courtesy of the completely infallible and never mistaken internet. 
(global air.com)

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Some Fs and probably all Gs have the same wingspan as the short bodies. The difference is that they have flat wingtips while beginning with the J there are different varieties of wingtips added on. These are mostly cosmetic.

My C has J-style wingtips, approx. 6" on each wing. They are thin fiberglass, and do nothing except look good on the ground and enclose the wingtip recognition lights.

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Rockets are modified Ks.

Missiles are modified Js.

Both are mid-bodies. Long bodies began with the M20-L with Porsche engine, most were destroyed by a hurricane while waiting for replacement with Continental engines.

My point was that those two have big-bore Continentals in mid-bodies.

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9 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

My point was that those two have big-bore Continentals in mid-bodies.

Yes, but they are highly modified. Nice, but they were not made like that by Mooney. Makes them a special case, much more modified than turning a 231 into a 262.

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  • 4 months later...

Good evening guys - I'm back as promised to make a purchase this summer.

As a refresher, I was looking at $300k and a plane to deal with flying in Michigan and the east coast.  

Here's where my head is at now: 

  • Can stretch up to almost $400k.
  • TKS is a "must have."
  • An Engine analyzer is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $10k?)
  • Engine heater is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $3k)
  • Garmin AP would be highly desirable (the Flight director capability and the FLC feature)
  • Short panel would be desirable, to avoid the "pill-box" feeling.  (I need to try both, since it's been a long time since my M20J time and zero time in a tall panel Mooney.)
  • If an Ovation, then the 310hp STC would be desirable (assume cost to do this is $15k?)
  • WAAS is desirable (sounds like this is $35k on top of a G1000).
  • Stormscope is desirable (assuming this is $10k add to a G1000?).
  • Flight director is desirable. (Will come with the AP such as GFC-700, or KFC225, but not the STEC-55x)

I am agnostic on turbo v. non-turbo (meaning Ovation v. Bravo).  The pros and cons appear to be a wash for me:

  • Bravo will have higher maintenance and fuel burn, but gives me more altitude flexibility, maybe less acquisition cost.
  • The Ovation engine replacement costs (I'm told all-in factory reman is max $65k) appear to be substantially less than the turbo Lycoming.
  • At the moment, Acclaim appears beyond my reach.

I am also agnostic on whether the plane comes with G1000 or steam gages with good navigators.  

The ideal airplane may be the Ovation 3 (with TKS, WAAS, StormScope).  Maybe a similarly equipped Bravo or 252 or pre-3 Ovation.

I bring this to your attention in case anyone is toying with the idea of selling.  I am also interested in whether I have the upgrade costs about right, since I probably won't find the perfect airplane initially.  Also, the wisdom of this community is invaluable.

I'm talking to my accountant about the pros and cons of an LLC for the plane.  Planned usage is 1/3 personal, 1/3 charity, 1/3 business.  150 hours/yr total.  Insurance quote is $5k/yr for an Ovation with my profile.  $1 million with $100k sublimits.  Seems $1M smooth is not available thru AOPA for me. (750 hours TT, 200 hours in M20J, 260 in Lancair retractable, 40 hrs last 12 months, no claims/violations).

If anyone knows of a Mooney CFI (and plane rental option) in Southeast Michigan (or nearby), I'd be interested as I need to get checked out.  

Best,

Ed

 

 

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On 5/21/2023 at 7:06 PM, Ed de C. said:

Good evening guys - I'm back as promised to make a purchase this summer.

As a refresher, I was looking at $300k and a plane to deal with flying in Michigan and the east coast.  

Here's where my head is at now: 

  • Can stretch up to almost $400k.
  • TKS is a "must have."
  • An Engine analyzer is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $10k?)
  • Engine heater is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $3k)
  • Garmin AP would be highly desirable (the Flight director capability and the FLC feature)
  • Short panel would be desirable, to avoid the "pill-box" feeling.  (I need to try both, since it's been a long time since my M20J time and zero time in a tall panel Mooney.)
  • If an Ovation, then the 310hp STC would be desirable (assume cost to do this is $15k?)
  • WAAS is desirable (sounds like this is $35k on top of a G1000).
  • Stormscope is desirable (assuming this is $10k add to a G1000?).
  • Flight director is desirable. (Will come with the AP such as GFC-700, or KFC225, but not the STEC-55x)

I am agnostic on turbo v. non-turbo (meaning Ovation v. Bravo).  The pros and cons appear to be a wash for me:

  • Bravo will have higher maintenance and fuel burn, but gives me more altitude flexibility, maybe less acquisition cost.
  • The Ovation engine replacement costs (I'm told all-in factory reman is max $65k) appear to be substantially less than the turbo Lycoming.
  • At the moment, Acclaim appears beyond my reach.

I am also agnostic on whether the plane comes with G1000 or steam gages with good navigators.  

The ideal airplane may be the Ovation 3 (with TKS, WAAS, StormScope).  Maybe a similarly equipped Bravo or 252 or pre-3 Ovation.

I bring this to your attention in case anyone is toying with the idea of selling.  I am also interested in whether I have the upgrade costs about right, since I probably won't find the perfect airplane initially.  Also, the wisdom of this community is invaluable.

I'm talking to my accountant about the pros and cons of an LLC for the plane.  Planned usage is 1/3 personal, 1/3 charity, 1/3 business.  150 hours/yr total.  Insurance quote is $5k/yr for an Ovation with my profile.  $1 million with $100k sublimits.  Seems $1M smooth is not available thru AOPA for me. (750 hours TT, 200 hours in M20J, 260 in Lancair retractable, 40 hrs last 12 months, no claims/violations).

If anyone knows of a Mooney CFI (and plane rental option) in Southeast Michigan (or nearby), I'd be interested as I need to get checked out.  

Best,

Ed

 

 

Why would you buy an ovation when you can buy a missile at about half the price and have the same performance you have Jay experience you just strapping on a 300 hp Mill. Spend your money on an awesome auto pilot and panel. You can be into a missile with a zero time engine and a great panel for under 200 K. Rocket engineering rocks.  Mid bodies are the sweet spot.

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On 5/21/2023 at 5:06 PM, Ed de C. said:

Good evening guys - I'm back as promised to make a purchase this summer.

As a refresher, I was looking at $300k and a plane to deal with flying in Michigan and the east coast.  

Here's where my head is at now: 

  • Can stretch up to almost $400k.
  • TKS is a "must have."
  • An Engine analyzer is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $10k?)
  • Engine heater is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $3k)
  • Garmin AP would be highly desirable (the Flight director capability and the FLC feature)
  • Short panel would be desirable, to avoid the "pill-box" feeling.  (I need to try both, since it's been a long time since my M20J time and zero time in a tall panel Mooney.)
  • If an Ovation, then the 310hp STC would be desirable (assume cost to do this is $15k?)
  • WAAS is desirable (sounds like this is $35k on top of a G1000).
  • Stormscope is desirable (assuming this is $10k add to a G1000?).
  • Flight director is desirable. (Will come with the AP such as GFC-700, or KFC225, but not the STEC-55x)

I am agnostic on turbo v. non-turbo (meaning Ovation v. Bravo).  The pros and cons appear to be a wash for me:

  • Bravo will have higher maintenance and fuel burn, but gives me more altitude flexibility, maybe less acquisition cost.
  • The Ovation engine replacement costs (I'm told all-in factory reman is max $65k) appear to be substantially less than the turbo Lycoming.
  • At the moment, Acclaim appears beyond my reach.

I am also agnostic on whether the plane comes with G1000 or steam gages with good navigators.  

The ideal airplane may be the Ovation 3 (with TKS, WAAS, StormScope).  Maybe a similarly equipped Bravo or 252 or pre-3 Ovation.

I bring this to your attention in case anyone is toying with the idea of selling.  I am also interested in whether I have the upgrade costs about right, since I probably won't find the perfect airplane initially.  Also, the wisdom of this community is invaluable.

I'm talking to my accountant about the pros and cons of an LLC for the plane.  Planned usage is 1/3 personal, 1/3 charity, 1/3 business.  150 hours/yr total.  Insurance quote is $5k/yr for an Ovation with my profile.  $1 million with $100k sublimits.  Seems $1M smooth is not available thru AOPA for me. (750 hours TT, 200 hours in M20J, 260 in Lancair retractable, 40 hrs last 12 months, no claims/violations).

If anyone knows of a Mooney CFI (and plane rental option) in Southeast Michigan (or nearby), I'd be interested as I need to get checked out.  

Best,

Ed

 

 

I might be willing to part with my TKS 310 HP Ovation with WAAS , stormscope, engine heater and flight director for $400k. 

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