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Phillips 66 Victory AW SAE 20W-50

gotyacovered

By gotyacovered
in General Mooney Talk

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gotyacovered Apprentice

gotyacovered

Posted
Posted

Hey all

 

I am a new M20F owner and verifying that I want to continue to use the same oil as the previous owner (picture attached).

 

-I am based in SW Arkansas, he was out of Chicago. (Totally diff climates)

-it has a tanis engine heater that will be used occasionally

-Engine has 350 hours all in the last 3 years (flew regularly which we will continue)

 

Does anyone have opinions they care to share?

 

 

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gotyacovered Apprentice

gotyacovered

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Hey all
 
I am a new M20F owner and verifying that I want to continue to use the same oil as the previous owner (picture attached).
 
-I am based in SW Arkansas, he was out of Chicago. (Totally diff climates)
-it has a tanis engine heater that will be used occasionally
-Engine has 350 hours all in the last 3 years (flew regularly which we will continue)
 
Does anyone have opinions they care to share?
 
 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

8dc700548a04feb5c06bf2aeee35a163.jpg


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jaylw314 Grand Master

jaylw314

Posted
Posted

Interesting, I didn't realize there was a multiweight Victory line.  I thought X/C was their multiweight line and Victory would be their straight-weight line.

FWIW, I use Victory 100AW.  It's motor oil :) 

Congratulations!

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted

You will be fine, there are no bad Aviation oils.

‘Personally I can’t come up with a logical reason not to use multi-vis oil, and a few reason to use it.

vik Collaborator

vik

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

You will be fine, there are no bad Aviation oils.

‘Personally I can’t come up with a logical reason not to use multi-vis oil, and a few reason to use it.

Except a long (very very long) time pilot would say "I used single viscosity all my life and it works!". I have heard more "scientific" explanations why single viscosity is better. I can also create an explanation why adding BS to your oil is beneficial. For example: the smell will tell you the engine burns or leaks too much oil. Time to open a company to sell BS oil additive! :)

I did use Victory 100 AW before simply because Victory AW 20W-50 was not yet available (or I could not find it) and I could get away with single viscosity where I live. Unlike my imaginary BS oil additive, camguard that is added to this oil works, is approved and even required by Lycosaur for some applications. Why not Aeroshell Plus 20W-50 which was available earlier? My scientific reason is usually written on a sticker on the shelf next to the oil bottles. Math is a science, right?  Maybe I am missing something important. I would love to read some real studies not based on mythology and anecdotal evidences why one aviation brand is better than the other. I am trying to be open minded.

The car industry moved to multi-viscosity oils long time ago and not looking back. My car went around the equator more than 10 times on multi-viscosity oil. Anecdotal evidence? Right. But millions of anecdotal evidences become statistics. Statistics is science, right? If only we could use group IV synthetic multi-viscosity oils! But that is another story. Until than, this Victory AW 20W-50 looks like the best deal in town. Multi-viscosity and no hassle to add camguard separately. I bet one does not save much if anything by mixing in camguard into a regular 20W-50 oil. Unless one has a stockpile of regular oil from the times of dinosaurs when oil was cheap.  But wait, chemists say oil is made of dinosaurs. Chemistry is not my strong point, or maybe, it is history or both :)

 

 

Ragsf15e Grand Master

Ragsf15e

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

IIRC, Victory has been implicated in slipping and damaged Continental starter adapters.

 

 

And doesn’t have Camguard.  It’s got a Lycoming anti scuff additive.  I’m just saying that because if you’re a Camguard fan, you’ll still need to add camguard.

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted

We could use group IV synthetic oil, there are additive packages that can deal with the lead, just Mobil-1 was in my opinion just too arrogant to look into it, and the Mobil-1 fiasco and others scream to me how much “FAA Approved” means as it was of course FAA approved.

But nobody else is willing to spend the bucks to manufacture and market a “real” synthetic oil, and except for our turbo brethren we don’t really need it truth be known, although it couldn’t hurt.

Usually people say they use single weight oil because it’s thicker when cold and that means it sticks to the cam better when sitting.

But here is the thing, we shut down hot, and hot single grade isn’t thicker so it’s drips off just like multi vis oil does.

Multi vis oil is actually straight grade oil that’s the lower number, so for Aeroshell 15W-50 oil it’s 15 weight oil with a viscosity improver that essentially prevents the oil from losing viscosity when it gets hot, so when hot it has the same viscosity as a 50W oil, so you in effect get the advantages of both, it’s not BS it works.

Well everything has a drawback, everything. So what’s multi-vis oils drawback? It’s that the viscosity improver is one of the first additive packages to wear out so it reduces the life of the oil, but as it lasts way beyond 50 hours for us it’s irrelevant, we are like Diesels, we don’t change our oil because it’s breaking down or worn out, we change it because it full of garbage, lead and carbon.

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

And doesn’t have Camguard.  It’s got a Lycoming anti scuff additive.  I’m just saying that because if you’re a Camguard fan, you’ll still need to add camguard.

Unlike the expensive Lycoming additive (price it) nothing has Camguard in it does it?

I think it interesting that people who swear by Camguard say it’s not in any regular oil, because it’s too expensive.

‘Look at what the Lycoming additive cost by itself https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/lycoiladditive.php

Camguard is what, half the price?

jetdriven Grand Master

jetdriven

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

IIRC, Victory has been implicated in slipping and damaged Continental starter adapters.

 

 

Yup.  We just swapped an Ovation starter adapter because of this. 

  • Like 1
jetdriven Grand Master

jetdriven

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, vik said:

Except a long (very very long) time pilot would say "I used single viscosity all my life and it works!". I have heard more "scientific" explanations why single viscosity is better. I can also create an explanation why adding BS to your oil is beneficial. For example: the smell will tell you the engine burns or leaks too much oil. Time to open a company to sell BS oil additive! :)

I did use Victory 100 AW before simply because Victory AW 20W-50 was not yet available (or I could not find it) and I could get away with single viscosity where I live. Unlike my imaginary BS oil additive, camguard that is added to this oil works, is approved and even required by Lycosaur for some applications. Why not Aeroshell Plus 20W-50 which was available earlier? My scientific reason is usually written on a sticker on the shelf next to the oil bottles. Math is a science, right?  Maybe I am missing something important. I would love to read some real studies not based on mythology and anecdotal evidences why one aviation brand is better than the other. I am trying to be open minded.

The car industry moved to multi-viscosity oils long time ago and not looking back. My car went around the equator more than 10 times on multi-viscosity oil. Anecdotal evidence? Right. But millions of anecdotal evidences become statistics. Statistics is science, right? If only we could use group IV synthetic multi-viscosity oils! But that is another story. Until than, this Victory AW 20W-50 looks like the best deal in town. Multi-viscosity and no hassle to add camguard separately. I bet one does not save much if anything by mixing in camguard into a regular 20W-50 oil. Unless one has a stockpile of regular oil from the times of dinosaurs when oil was cheap.  But wait, chemists say oil is made of dinosaurs. Chemistry is not my strong point, or maybe, it is history or both :)

 

 

The additive in the victory oil in no way resembles camguard. One is triphenyl phosphate, and one has like 15 things.  None of which is TPP. 

  • Like 1
jaylw314 Grand Master

jaylw314

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

IIRC, Victory has been implicated in slipping and damaged Continental starter adapters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware of any M20F's out there with Continental motors?

Edited by jaylw314
Rspencer612 Enthusiast

Rspencer612

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware of any M20F's out there with Continental motors?

My M20J has a Continental IO-550 in it!  And yes, I use Victory 20W50

Pinecone Grand Master

Pinecone

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

We could use group IV synthetic oil, there are additive packages that can deal with the lead, just Mobil-1 was in my opinion just too arrogant to look into it, and the Mobil-1 fiasco and others scream to me how much “FAA Approved” means as it was of course FAA approved.

But nobody else is willing to spend the bucks to manufacture and market a “real” synthetic oil, and except for our turbo brethren we don’t really need it truth be known, although it couldn’t hurt.

Usually people say they use single weight oil because it’s thicker when cold and that means it sticks to the cam better when sitting.

But here is the thing, we shut down hot, and hot single grade isn’t thicker so it’s drips off just like multi vis oil does.

Multi vis oil is actually straight grade oil that’s the lower number, so for Aeroshell 15W-50 oil it’s 15 weight oil with a viscosity improver that essentially prevents the oil from losing viscosity when it gets hot, so when hot it has the same viscosity as a 50W oil, so you in effect get the advantages of both, it’s not BS it works.

Well everything has a drawback, everything. So what’s multi-vis oils drawback? It’s that the viscosity improver is one of the first additive packages to wear out so it reduces the life of the oil, but as it lasts way beyond 50 hours for us it’s irrelevant, we are like Diesels, we don’t change our oil because it’s breaking down or worn out, we change it because it full of garbage, lead and carbon.

If we could get full synthetic oils (I am not going to debate the Classes), they are naturally multiweight, so do not use any or very small amounts of viscosity improvers.  This one reason modern oils can run 15,000 miles in cars.  And provide better lubrication and corrosion protection.

Another reason I look forward to G100UL

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted

I’ll bet lunch that the engine manufacturers won’t increase oil change interval, I believe Rotax does, but I bet Lyc and Conti won’t.

It’s not just lead, lead doesn’t turn the oil black, carbon does. You can’t compare aircraft engines to Auto engines, a very large reason why is being air cooled the tolerances are very loose, they have to be as temps and therefore thermal expansion varies a lot, then the cylinders are huge, requiring even more clearance, there are no 360 cu in 4 cyl cars. 

Finally no matter how bad a pilot overheats an engine it cant be allowed to seize and that means even looser piston fit, and loose fits mean greater blow-by, blow by means carbon in the oil.

The loose fits is why we run syrup thick oils, where Auto’s are now running 0W oil.

Likely lead fouling plugs will be a thing of the past, I don’t know why but I’ve never had a plug lead foul so that’s not going to be any different for me.

How long does it take for your cars oil to turn as dark as your airplane oil does in 50 hours? Mine never does, but I change oil every 5,000 miles which is 200 hours roughly.

Some cars track operating hours as well as miles, these cars dispel the myth that we average 50 mph in our cars etc. it’s really in the 20’s maybe 30’s if you only drive highways, that time crawling around in traffic, sitting at red lights etc kills average speed, but it accumulates hours

So operating wise you hit 50 hours in an auto in about 1200 - 1500 miles. How black is your car oil then?

Group IV oil is the only true Synthetic, and in most of the world is the only oil that can be legally sold as Synthetic, in the US in a Lawsuit Castrol was successful in having what synthetic is definition in the US changed. So in the US specially treated regular oil can be sold as Synthetic, as there is a rather large price difference and the cheaper oil can be marketed as Synthetic, group IV oils are getting less and less common, because they cost a lot more but people looking at the oil shelf at Autozone will more often buy the less expensive Synthetic, because they are both Synthetic right? 

Group IV synthetics come into their own when used in engine under extreme operating conditions like heat and can allow much longer oil change intervals because they have little or no viscosity improvers to break down.

‘But in truth our aircraft engines that aren’t turbo charged aren’t hard on oil at all, they don’t get it hot not really and as our bottom ends are built like Diesels and our RPM is so low they don’t shear oil much at all, and with an OCI of 50 hours it’s not even close to breaking down, so group IV oil likely wouldn’t make much if any difference, because it’s simply not needed.

Its biggest advantage is if God forbid you get a massive oil leak or anything that may have you running for some time with most of your oil gone, then a group IV may save your engine, and therefore maybe you and your pax.

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted

I don’t believe there is ANY group IV oil in Aeroshell’s 15W-50 oil, despite their claim of it being a Synthetic blend, but I can’t prove that.

toto Grand Master

toto

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

If we could get full synthetic oils (I am not going to debate the Classes), they are naturally multiweight, so do not use any or very small amounts of viscosity improvers.  This one reason modern oils can run 15,000 miles in cars.  And provide better lubrication and corrosion protection.

Another reason I look forward to G100UL

 

If you want full synthetic oil, I know a guy :)

 

image.png

Pinecone Grand Master

Pinecone

Posted
Posted

Lycoming has already extended the oil change interval for running unleaded fuel.  So, I would suspect that they will do the same for full synthetic oils.

I keep track of info every time I fill up. I run in the mid-30 MPH range as an average for a tank.  So 50 hours is about 1500 miles.

My BMW has a base oil change interval of 15,525 miles.  Or about 500 hours.  But the number is dynamic.  In the 90s, they went through algorithms with input of cold starts and hot starts and miles and the phase of the moon. :)

They finally figured out that a single parameter was enough.  Gallons of fuel burned.   Run the car harder, you change the oil more often.  Drive it gently and you can go over 15,252 miles.

For reference, it gets in the upper 20 MPH on the highway.  4.4 MPG on the track being run hard. :)

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted

30 years or so GM came out with GMOLS or GM oil life system, they did it first, it was an algorithm that started with a number each cold start took away v numbers, short trips x number etc until you got to zero then the oil change light would come on.

‘It’s estimated that GMOLS has saved who knows how many millions of gallons of oil.

 https://repairpal.com/gm-oil-life-system

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