Mooney 201 lands on high power lines in MD

[Ibra]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Actually facts and logic do apply - it seems that aircraft owners have forgotten them:

• Our economy is based upon free market economics and capitalism which seeks the most efficient use of assets and capital for the greatest return
• General Aviation airports are a terribly inefficient use of large blocks of land
• "Developers" are referred to here with derision as the evil enemy
•  "Free market" means without or with limited government involvement and intervention
• GA Pilot/Owners are a tiny, tiny minority whose rights to fly are only protected by Federal government involvement and intervention

Underutilized and undervalued land is just a temporary parking place for General Aviation Airports.  I have said it before, Bill Cutter (Cutter Aviation - the oldest independent FBO) started in Albuquerque building GA airports and FBO's.  As soon as "urban sprawl" moved in he sold the airport to Developers for use as a new residential subdivision and moved farther out to build another new airport again on underutilized land.  He did it about 3 times in ABQ.  Houston has done the same thing over the past 20 years - Andrau, Old Westheimer and Weiser Air Park - all Privately Owned - all sold to developers for residential and mixed use - all driven by economics.   Even the land under Mueller Commercial Airport, conveniently located in downtown Austin became too valuable and it was sold to developers around 2000.

The "feeling and emotion" on TV and in council meetings regarding noise and safety is just an irrelevant sideshow.  The real juice in "decision making" is driven by economics - whether it is a city or privately owned.

Let's face it - we as GA owners don't pay anything near enough in landing fees or hangar rent to be equivalent to what the land could earn if properly developed.  If it is a towered airport we are not paying for the Tower.  And let's not forget that we are sponging off of Commercial Aviation for the free ATC that we get (It is just a matter of time before the GA ATC User Fee issue comes back up - do you remember that debate 10 yrs ago?)

If you are "making good decisions" then you are planning for the day that your GA airport is sold and moved 10's of miles farther out or you are planning to get out of GA before it happens.  I predict that West Houston and DW Hooks, both privately owned, will be sold in the next 10 years. The land offers from those "evil Developers", driven by urban population growth and pressing demand, will be too lucrative for the family owners to turn down.

Jeez GA, US and worldwide, is doomed anyway irrespective of the economic cycles, high profile accidents don't matter anyway...

* Booming economy = booming real estate = GA KO

* Declining economy = people selling their toys = GA KO 

We may just enjoy the last bit of it while we can? just like our own limited lives: death is coming anyway, my death is probably after next week, I am not too bothered as it's right after my next flight this weekend 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ibra

[FlyingDude]

@Ibra apparently having a pleasant, sunny and joyful day over there?

I am not planning on taking the plane to my grave.  I'll hand it over to my kids (or someone else if my kids don't want it) so that they can keep flying.  It's great that you acknowledge the frailty and mortality of your existence, but "life" goes on.  So will GA   

[ilovecornfields]

46 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Exactly my point!

I went on my rant because it seems many don’t agree with that logical view. Rather, after the fact, on their high comfortable BarcaLoungers, they righteously proclaim, “that wasn’t an accident. It could have been prevented if the pilot wasn’t an idiot!”

I think there was a miscommunication somewhere. My BarcaLounger never arrived.

I wouldn’t say everyone who crashed is an idiot, but I do think many of these outcomes were entirely predictable based on the actions taken by the pilot, often hours before the crash even occurred. The point of discussing this isn’t to call everyone an idiot, it’s to try to understand why a seemingly reasonable person thought that was a good idea at the time and how we can avoid making the same mistake if we find ourselves in a similar situation. I’ve learned a lot from other peoples crashes.

[FlyingDude]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

I wouldn’t say everyone who crashed is an idiot, but I do think many of these outcomes were entirely predictable based on the actions taken by the pilot, often hours before the crash even occurred.

There’s a sinister mixture of “who is without sin cast the first stone” and “victim shaming” and the fear of “jinxing oneself”. Unforeseen accidents DO happen (like aircraft meteor collisions), poor pilot decision does happen (telling atc you’re instrument rated and entering imc while you’re not) but there’s also mishaps, like pulling off hundreds of low ifr or high xwind landings but that one time it just goes bad. 

I think that’s why we have godless (or a self standing god) ntsb to cast stones without jinxing itself, so I guess we’ll just wait and see…

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Agree.  That's why they are called accidents, not "on-purposes".

Those affected by Germanwings 9525 would beg to differ, but the crash investigation is still treated the same way.  The question is not 'what caused it' or 'what could they have done better,' rather 'what can we do better next time?'

[Andy95W]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021_05_11_archive.html

I agree with the general premise that accidents are not done on purpose, particularly as it applies to responsible pilots.  But I wonder what anyone would make of the report above, which happened at the airport where I base my Mooney.

To summarize:

The accident pilot departed Georgia for a 3.5 hour flight into deteriorating conditions without a weather briefing, without an alternate, and WITHOUT AN INSTRUMENT RATING.

By the time he got to the destination, the weather was 300 overcast with the freezing level around 1000’ AGL.  The minimums for the only approach, a VOR or GPS-A, are around 700.  That approach, BTW, was NOTAM’d unavailable (not that it mattered- remember I said he didn’t have an instrument rating?)

I agree he didn’t kill himself and his family on purpose, but all of his other actions that day were.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Andy95W

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Here in Texas, with its massive state surplus, the state could afford build all the new highways that everyone desires. However all the major new highways/freeways added (where no highway previously existed- not talking about replacing or widening of existing) in the last 20 years have been toll roads. They charge you about $1.25 every few miles. 
https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot-info/tpp/maps/toll_hov_map.pdf

And BTW - I thought you were a tech savvy guy. “Stopping and paying every 5 miles” went out with big hair, Sony Walkman and Y2K. Everything is interrogated and read every few miles and at entrances and exits by RFID toll tags. And then there are cameras simultaneously recording twice (front and rear)  every vehicle passing. In fact the cameras are so good at reading front and rear license plates that they have shut down all cash/coin/change lanes and booths. You can’t “stop and pay” if you wanted to. If you don’t have a toll tag they track you down and send a bill. If you don’t pay they hit you with legal fees and aggressive bill collectors. Here in “free and independent” Texas I guess there is a feeling that infrastructure should pay for  itself. 
 

I get it that in remote no-growth areas of the country the airport is safe from being swallowed by urban growth - how it remains economically viable without Federal, state and local subsidy is another question.  I understand your cost - benefit argument. But it will be under continued scrutiny and shift over time as things like commercial tilt rotor aircraft emerge. It will become harder to justify needing a runway. 
https://aviationweek.com/shownews/nbaa/leonardo-flies-first-production-aw609-commercial-tiltrotor

Yes - I know - I have an "EZpass".  Yes, I am not a fan of toll roads and they are just a direct tax to a different means instead of an Ala-cart tax.  In fact, I don't want a super highway to here since without - it keeps all the people away and well - that's why I Iive here - far from all the too many people.  Don't get me wrong - I love people - just not a million at a time, on the road in front of me.

Anyway my point is not the fun of stopping to give $0.15 on the Jersey turnpike - its a metaphor even if yeah that has streamlined - an airport is part of the national transportation system.  It carries things besides rich people.  And the big airports are not enough to fill the need for organ donors, ups, police, fire, pipeline, ag, and on and on.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021_05_11_archive.html

I agree with the general premise that accidents are not done on purpose, particularly as it applies to responsible pilots.  But I wonder what anyone would make of the report above, which happened at the airport where I base my Mooney.

To summarize:

The accident pilot departed Georgia for a 3.5 hour flight into deteriorating conditions without a weather briefing, without an alternate, and WITHOUT AN INSTRUMENT RATING.

By the time he got to the destination, the weather was 300 overcast with the freezing level around 1000’ AGL.  The minimums for the only approach, a VOR or GPS-A, are around 700.  That approach, BTW, was NOTAM’d unavailable (not that it mattered- remember I said he didn’t have an instrument rating?)

I agree he didn’t kill himself and his family on purpose, but all of his other actions that day were.

That's easy.  What incidents like that teach us about 'how we can do better in the future' is the need to speak up when we see warning signs in other pilots around us, be they our friends, partners, students, teachers or acquaintances.  Hopefully, the report in that incident will look for what visible warning signs there might have been so we know what to look for in the future.

Sadly, I suspect there have been plenty of such reports and data already collected.  Where do you think the '5 Fatal Attitudes in Aviation' comes from?  We should be learning to recognize them not just in ourselves, but in other people and learning how to speak up about them in ways more likely to promote change

Edited December 16, 2022 by jaylw314

[FlyingDude]

21 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

You seemed to have missed the economics - it is about seeking efficient development/use of property in order to maximize return by the city/county.

• First if the airport is city or county owned there is NO Property TAX and NO INCOME to the city or county
• Second private airports pay ridiculously low property taxes to the city/county

KDWH - David Wayne Hooks - is in Harris county

• It is on 140 acres
• Public records show it paid only $99.6k in total property taxes to the City and County last year.
• That is $711/acre annual income to the City and County total

KSGR - Sugar Land - is in Ft. Bend county

• It is on approx. 640 acres
• There is no property tax income to the County or City since it is owned by the City
• In 2021 Fiscal year they had $15.025 million in Revenue and $16.461 in Expenses for a Loss of $(1.44) million

Texas has some of the highest effective property tax rates in the country.  I own homes in both counties and I can tell you that If you look at the property taxes on residential developments on a per acre basis I pay a minimum of $30K/acre in Ft. Bend and in Harris County it is much much more. 

Multi-acre tracts of vacant land near KDWH are currently selling for $270k/acre,  If KDWH sells to Developers they will get over $40 million.  And the County & City will get $4-5 million in property taxes annually (compared to about $100k now).  It is a "win-win" for the airport owner and the County/City.

Multi-acre tracts of vacant land near KSGR are are currently selling for $700k - $1million/acre. When the City decides to sell the airport they may get a windfall of $400+ million.  And when developed the City and County may enjoy about $18 million in property tax annually.

You mention golf courses - it is the same thing.  They are being torn up and redeveloped as the economics drive the change.

It's just economics.  

Ok.

[jetdriven]

The newest Texas toll roads are owned by an a company that’s half Italian and half Goldman-sachs. So it’s it’s cost plus healthy profit margin plus debt service. Something may think “free state” Texas would be against.  But there are other factors at play. 
https://www.texasturf.org/2012-06-01-03-09-30/latest-news/public-private-partnerships/210-texans-to-boycott-first-foreign-owned-toll-road

[mike_elliott]

On 12/15/2022 at 7:51 PM, aviatoreb said:

No kidding.  I wouldn't have guessed.

What's their opinion on satellites flying over their property and their owned space?

the way they are going after Elon already, dont give them ideas Erik

[Schllc]

On 12/15/2022 at 11:50 PM, 1980Mooney said:

 

Actually facts and logic do apply - it seems that aircraft owners have forgotten them:

• Our economy is based upon free market economics and capitalism which seeks the most efficient use of assets and capital for the greatest return
• General Aviation airports are a terribly inefficient use of large blocks of land
• "Developers" are referred to here with derision as the evil enemy
•  "Free market" means without or with limited government involvement and intervention
• GA Pilot/Owners are a tiny, tiny minority whose rights to fly are only protected by Federal government involvement and intervention

Underutilized and undervalued land is just a temporary parking place for General Aviation Airports.  I have said it before, Bill Cutter (Cutter Aviation - the oldest independent FBO) started in Albuquerque building GA airports and FBO's.  As soon as "urban sprawl" moved in he sold the airport to Developers for use as a new residential subdivision and moved farther out to build another new airport again on underutilized land.  He did it about 3 times in ABQ.  Houston has done the same thing over the past 20 years - Andrau, Old Westheimer and Weiser Air Park - all Privately Owned - all sold to developers for residential and mixed use - all driven by economics.   Even the land under Mueller Commercial Airport, conveniently located in downtown Austin became too valuable and it was sold to developers around 2000.

The "feeling and emotion" on TV and in council meetings regarding noise and safety is just an irrelevant sideshow.  The real juice in "decision making" is driven by economics - whether it is a city or privately owned.

Let's face it - we as GA owners don't pay anything near enough in landing fees or hangar rent to be equivalent to what the land could earn if properly developed.  If it is a towered airport we are not paying for the Tower.  And let's not forget that we are sponging off of Commercial Aviation for the free ATC that we get (It is just a matter of time before the GA ATC User Fee issue comes back up - do you remember that debate 10 yrs ago?)

If you are "making good decisions" then you are planning for the day that your GA airport is sold and moved 10's of miles farther out or you are planning to get out of GA before it happens.  I predict that West Houston and DW Hooks, both privately owned, will be sold in the next 10 years. The land offers from those "evil Developers", driven by urban population growth and pressing demand, will be too lucrative for the family owners to turn down.

Well, there are a few things in the country that are terribly inefficient but maintained for reasons other than efficiency. 
The mail is one of those things. 
I would argue that airports are another.
In the event of a catastrophe or war, or some other civil unrest where the roads are disrupted, airports become pretty necessary. 
While it is easily argued that this is far fetched and tin foil hat, it’s just insurance. 
The argument over the roi is valid, but once they are gone and the real estate is absorbed, the cost to reestablish becomes impossible or prohibitively expensive, and when the need arises there are no options.
Most of the airfields in this country were built during war time or in preparation for war. 
I don’t want to be cynical but thinking simply for now has gotten  more than one society past the point of no return…

It is a free market, and all the things about property value are valid, but few things in modern society are viewed holistically anymore because we have several generations who have not suffered for anything at all, and everything is about “now” and “me” today.
This is not the normal human cycle. 

 

Strong men make good times, good times make weak men, weak men make bad times, and bad times make strong men. 
We are two generations into weak men and we are seeing the product. 
Buckle up. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

the way they are going after Elon already, dont give them ideas Erik

As a mathematician let me assert Lands Rights as an irregular cone outlined by the earth surface property lines extending to a point at the center of the Earth and out into space to infinity to the edge of the visible universe 13 billion light years away. Of course accommodating curvature of space time, it should be stated in terms of level surfaces to be mathematically well defined.

Edited December 17, 2022 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

48 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Well, there are a few things in the country that are terribly inefficient but maintained for reasons other than efficiency. 
The mail is one of those things. 
I would argue that airports are another.
In the event of a catastrophe or war, or some other civil unrest where the roads are disrupted, airports become pretty necessary. 
While it is easily argued that this is far fetched and tin foil hat, it’s just insurance. 
The argument over the roi is valid, but once they are gone and the real estate is absorbed, the cost to reestablish becomes impossible or prohibitively expensive, and when the need arises there are no options.
Most of the airfields in this country were built during war time or in preparation for war. 
I don’t want to be cynical but thinking simply for now has gotten  more than one society past the point of no return…

It is a free market, and all the things about property value are valid, but few things in modern society are viewed holistically anymore because we have several generations who have not suffered for anything at all, and everything is about “now” and “me” today.
This is not the normal human cycle. 

 

Strong men make good times, good times make weak men, weak men make bad times, and bad times make strong men. 
We are two generations into weak men and we are seeing the product. 
Buckle up. 

I agree.

but we don’t need to state what if a war happens to understand the role of many airports in an emergency.  The airports many are there in the case of more mundane aeronautical emergencies for emergency diverting landings.  And even to be filed ifr alternates.

Edited December 17, 2022 by aviatoreb

[RobertGary1]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:00 PM, ilovecornfields said:

I’ve heard controllers say the visual approach is the easiest but today I got cleared for my RNAV approach 30 miles south of the IF (which I had been direct to for half an hour). Can imagine it gets any easier than that.

A couple times I got a cruise clearance. That’s easier. 

[redbaron1982]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I agree.

but we don’t need to state what if a war happens to understand the role of many airports in an emergency.  The airports many are there in the case of more mundane aeronautical emergencies for emergency diverting landings.  And even to be filed ifr alternates.

I agree with this and with the initial post of @Schllc, I want to also add the educational purpose of many smaller airports. For instance, KDWH that was mentioned before, is extremely active on flight schools. I took my private and instrument on a school based there. It was not uncommon to be number 4 or 5 for takeoff. And not only training for new pilots doing the initial steps to an ATP license, but also flight instructors building up time, ATC controllers learning in a not so complex escenario like could be KIAH, etc.

If you kill these airports, are we suppose to take flying lessons and do pattern work on KIAH?

On top of that I think there is a lot of investments and progress that comes from having a good airport near by. It's very hard to quantify it in terms of dollars, but I'm quite sure it's there.

For instance KSGR has many enterprises near by: Amazon, Fedex, Yokogawa, Baker Hughes, Schlumberger, etc.

I imagine a high executive of any of these companies, how much easier for them is to fly to KSGR instead of KHOU and then drive one hour.

Sadly I also agree with @1980Mooney, in a 100% free market, money (fast, not long term) is king, and if construction companies sees the opportunity to buy KDWH for 40M and make a 400M investment out of it, they will do it if non stop but someone.

I am 100% to free market, but I think there are some strategic things where is fundamental for the Federal Government to stand up and intervene, in general this applies to most of the infrastructure a country needs (roads, airports, waterways, etc). The sweet spot is when both the public and private sector comes together in a synergic way. An inefficient gov is wasting tax payers money and a private company only looking for it's own benefit may harm the public in the mid/long term.

[Schllc]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I agree.

but we don’t need to state what if a war happens to understand the role of many airports in an emergency.  The airports many are there in the case of more mundane aeronautical emergencies for emergency diverting landings.  And even to be filed ifr alternates.

I think all valid reasons should be stated. 
where I live there is one particular neighborhood that is in the predominant flight path.  This neighborhood is responsible for the vast majority of the noise complaints. 
the neighborhood was built around 40 years after the airport. 
the people organize and say the most outlandish things, like the noise gave them diabetes and is ruining their lives. 
If something adjacent to my property, that existed when I bought the property, was making me miserable, I would move. In fact, that has happened, and I did!

The airport authority and the town indulge this idiocy as if it’s as valid.  I would ask one thing at the meetings, did the airportI exist and was it functioning when you purchased the property?  If so….NEXT!!!!

I don’t understand the mindset of the complainers or those who entertain the foolish complaints. But I know if airports aren’t not defended with the same tenacity and inexorable energy as the hyper vocal minority of complainers, they will disappear very soon. 

[Sue Bon]

18 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

As a mathematician let me assert Lands Rights as an irregular cone outlined by the earth surface property lines extending to a point at the center of the Earth and out into space to infinity to the edge of the visible universe 13 billion light years away. Of course accommodating curvature of space time, it should be stated in terms of level surfaces to be mathematically well defined.

The thing I love most about this post is that it was edited

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, Schllc said:

The airport authority and the town indulge this idiocy as if it’s as valid.  I would ask one thing at the meetings, did the airportI exist and was it functioning when you purchased the property?  If so….NEXT!!!!

Unfortunately, indulging in that idiocy is not only valid, but supported by the precedent setting case I quote earlier, Spur Industries vs. Del E. Webb Corp., 1972.  Del E. Webb Corp. was the developer of a retirement community that built on low cost land around a cattle yard owned by Spur Industries which had predated the homes.  Guess what?  Spur Industries was forced to shut down because they were deemed a 'nuisance'!  Makes my blood boil, but whatcha gonna do???

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Unfortunately, indulging in that idiocy is not only valid, but supported by the precedent setting case I quote earlier, Spur Industries vs. Del E. Webb Corp., 1972.  Del E. Webb Corp. was the developer of a retirement community that built on low cost land around a cattle yard owned by Spur Industries which had predated the homes.  Guess what?  Spur Industries was forced to shut down because they were deemed a 'nuisance'!  Makes my blood boil, but whatcha gonna do???

If you are going to suggest a court ruling equates to invalidating idiocy then we are in bizzaro world!  /sarcasm off…

But seriously, airport noise causes diabetes?

 

[jetdriven]

7 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

The thing I love the most about this post is that it was edited

What was edited ?  Typos or some thing more  sinister?

[Schllc]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Unfortunately, indulging in that idiocy is not only valid, but supported by the precedent setting case I quote earlier, Spur Industries vs. Del E. Webb Corp., 1972.  Del E. Webb Corp. was the developer of a retirement community that built on low cost land around a cattle yard owned by Spur Industries which had predated the homes.  Guess what?  Spur Industries was forced to shut down because they were deemed a 'nuisance'!  Makes my blood boil, but whatcha gonna do???

Btw. Did you read the case brief?

The developer had to pay Spur Industries for the expense of the moving of operations. 
that’s pretty interesting. 
I also think that type of public nuisance is considerably different from a cattle feedlot.
The airport serves the public good.  
I doubt much of the precedent would apply.  

 

  

[Sue Bon]

5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

What was edited ?  Typos or some thing more  sinister?

I assume for accuracy, but how should I know? The whole post went way over my head (pun intended).

[MikeOH]

12 hours ago, Schllc said:

Btw. Did you read the case brief?

The developer had to pay Spur Industries for the expense of the moving of operations. 
that’s pretty interesting. 
I also think that type of public nuisance is considerably different from a cattle feedlot.
The airport serves the public good.  
I doubt much of the precedent would apply.  

 

  

Yes, I did.  I, too, was surprised that the court made the developer pay.  But that does not negate the fact that the developer was successful in displacing the pre-existing business, Spur  Industries.  I think that decision is chilling especially as it rested on the cattle feedlot being simply a 'nuisance'!

I don't share your optimism that an airport couldn't be argued as a nuisance, not to mention the 'threat' of crashes.  I think the precedent could well apply, unfortunately.

I do share your hope that it doesn't, however!

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

I assume for accuracy, but how should I know? The whole post went way over my head (pun intended).

Well I, for one, appreciated your humor