Safety Pilot Time

[fantom]

From the sublime to the ridiculous, IMHO.

Other than a major airline checking you flight history, who really gives a flying rats ass?

[bnicolette]

Quote: fantom

From the sublime to the ridiculous, IMHO.

Other than a major airline checking you flight history, who really gives a flying rats ass?

[danb35]

Mike, a safety pilot isn't a passenger--he's a crewmember.

[danb35]

Becca, what in 61.51 leads you to the conclusion that being required crew is sufficient grounds to log PIC time?

[201er]

Quote: danb35

Mike, a safety pilot isn't a passenger--he's a crewmember.

[1964-M20E]

Quote: fantom

From the sublime to the ridiculous, IMHO.

Other than a major airline checking you flight history, who really gives a flying rats ass?

[jetdriven]

Quote: 1964-M20E

Other than for a new rating, insurance or currency it does not matter.  You do not need to keep a log of your time.

Bottom line log PIC when you feel you acted as PIC. 

To add fuel to this crash when does the time begin when acting as PIC?  I feel it begins during the flight planning stage and ends when the aircraft is tied down since I'm responsible for the flight.  What do I log it depends it is my log book. 

I thought about having my original log book for new ratings and a monthly log sheet for currency and insurance that would  get lost each year on a rolling basis.

[fantom]

So Byron, do you always round up in tenths, and log PIC when Becca is in the left seat? ;-)

[Cruiser]

Quote: 201er

Can someone confirm my understanding of the FARs that the safety pilot (assuming both pilots are private) cannot log PIC time on the flying pilot's dollar? In other words, if the safety pilot logs PIC, they gotta split the cost.

Sec. 61.113 — Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs ( through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

© A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

If the safety pilot isn't paying for the flight (in part or in whole), then the safety pilot should not act as PIC nor log PIC as it would be a violation of 61.113c. On the other hand, acting as nothing more than SIC (61.51f2), the safety pilot can log the time as SIC without paying a dime and can even be paid by the pilot for being the lookout.

[Becca]

Quote: danb35

Becca, what in 61.51 leads you to the conclusion that being required crew is sufficient grounds to log PIC time?

[Becca]

Quote: fantom

So Byron, do you always round up in tenths, and log PIC when Becca is in the left seat? ;-)

[fantom]

Quote: Becca

Not that Byron needs the time, at 8,000 hrs, everyone stops caring about how much total time you have.

[danb35]

Quote: Becca

This is why the safety pilot is logging PIC->> (iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

[Becca]

Quote: danb35

OK, then how do you understand "acts as pilot in command" in this section?

[bnicolette]

[Hank]

Found this very clear explanation of the difference between ACTING AS PIC and LOGGING PIC TIME:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=10&sqi=2&ved=0CG0QFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takeflightsandiego.com%2Fdocuments%2FActingasPICandLoggingPICTime.doc&ei=kUc1T-TBGYjq0gHU-4S9Dg&usg=AFQjCNEO68cPSX20MrnX0TLPBkpoAGppbQ

It's an ugly link, and it opens a Word document so I can't grab the html address from there, either. In the meantime, I'll continue to log my safety pilot time as PIC for the amount that the Pilot Flying is wearing a view-limiting device, because unless in IMC when the view-limiting device is not needed, it is up to the PIC to either maintain VFR or maintain visual separation, and that can't be done by someone who cannot see out the windows.

[Becca]

Quote: Hank

Found this very clear explanation of the difference between ACTING AS PIC and LOGGING PIC TIME:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=10&sqi=2&ved=0CG0QFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takeflightsandiego.com%2Fdocuments%2FActingasPICandLoggingPICTime.doc&ei=kUc1T-TBGYjq0gHU-4S9Dg&usg=AFQjCNEO68cPSX20MrnX0TLPBkpoAGppbQ

It's an ugly link, and it opens a Word document so I can't grab the html address from there, either. In the meantime, I'll continue to log my safety pilot time as PIC for the amount that the Pilot Flying is wearing a view-limiting device, because unless in IMC when the view-limiting device is not needed, it is up to the PIC to either maintain VFR or maintain visual separation, and that can't be done by someone who cannot see out the windows.

[Becca]

Quote: Hank

Found this very clear explanation of the difference between ACTING AS PIC and LOGGING PIC TIME:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=10&sqi=2&ved=0CG0QFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takeflightsandiego.com%2Fdocuments%2FActingasPICandLoggingPICTime.doc&ei=kUc1T-TBGYjq0gHU-4S9Dg&usg=AFQjCNEO68cPSX20MrnX0TLPBkpoAGppbQ

It's an ugly link, and it opens a Word document so I can't grab the html address from there, either. In the meantime, I'll continue to log my safety pilot time as PIC for the amount that the Pilot Flying is wearing a view-limiting device, because unless in IMC when the view-limiting device is not needed, it is up to the PIC to either maintain VFR or maintain visual separation, and that can't be done by someone who cannot see out the windows.

[fantom]

I fly with a guy who owns a Cezzzna 177RG, who always wears what I consider to be a "view limiting device". Think I'll start logging PIC time when I'm with him, cause I'm always watching outside. He's also a gizmo lover and heads down button masher, probably because he can't see a thing outside. ;-)

 

[Hank]

Hey, wow, we outlasted the Red Board!

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=79627

Or are we just three times as hardheaded, based on the relative posting counts?

[201er]

Quote: Becca

 And then there is the section that says "responsibility and authority of pilot in command" are: The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.  So do you say you are "acting as pilot in command" when you have that authority? 

As a safety pilot, if you see a hazard, you are the one, and only one, directly responsible to avoid it - you are the "final authority".  (Or on the negative side you are at every moment making the decision to continue to flight since you don't see as collission hazard).  If you are the safety pilot and your plane, say, collides with another plane that you should have seen, and you are lucky enough to walk away, the FAA is going to hold you responsible as PIC, because you are the only, final, and directly responsible authority.  And since the entire time you are acting as safety pilot while the other guy is under the hood, you are exercising that authority in my opinion.

[galt1074]

Wow, I had no idea this was going to be such a hot topic. It reminds me of our military debriefs after a formation sortie. There's just enough wiggle-room in the regulation for very experienced people to disagree with the final answer. By all means keep it up folks because I'm learning with each post.

Greg

[danb35]

Mike, you've just hit on something else I was going to mention.

Becca, let's suppose I have a safety pilot who isn't legal to be PIC for some reason--maybe she doesn't have a complex endorsement.  What can she log?

[aviatoreb]

Quote: 201er

You can't just log PIC by acting as safety pilot. You would have to act as PIC which means being responsible and fully qualified for the flight. You must have all ratings and endorsements, flight review, medical, and currency requirements met. Also you would probably need to be qualified for the insurance or flight school requirements for acting as PIC in that airplane. You would also require an instrument rating if on an instrument flight plan or in IMC. Once all of these requirements are met, you can both log PIC time for the length of time that he is flying under the hood as sole manipulator of the controls and you are acting as PIC of the airplane.

Otherwise yes, you can log SIC.

[danb35]

Quote: aviatoreb

As I understand it you don't need to be even IFR cert to be PIC as an IFR practice safety pilot since that operation is generally run VMC.