Safety Pilot Time

[galt1074]

Strange thing just happened. The local FBO just called me and asked me to fly as the safety pilot for a new pilot they have that just got checked out in the Arrow II. It turns out this guy is the new President of Bendix/King Avionics!! Pretty cool guy and he said he is doing some serious work on making them competitive again. Anyway, I've been reading through the CFRs and I think I should log SIC time for being his safety pilot...does that make sense to you guys? The military doesn't log time the same way civilians do so I'm still learning the rules.

 

Greg

[tony]

you were safety pilot while he had the foggles on?  then yes

[Parker_Woodruff]

You can log the time as PIC if you are rated in the same category and class of aircraft while acting as Safety Pilot.

Note this needs to be while he has a view limiting device on or while you're playing the role of CFI.

If it's just to have a pilot observer without meeting above criteria, dont log.

[rob]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

You can log the time as PIC if you are rated in the same category and class of aircraft while acting as Safety Pilot.

Note this needs to be while he has a view limiting device on or while you're playing the role of CFI.

If it's just to have a pilot observer without meeting above criteria, dont log.

[DrBill]

The requirement states that it must be in an operation that requires a co-pilot. For most single engine activities that is only when doing IFR practice work with view limiting device on the pilot. Unless your a CFI and then there are other "activities".

BILL

 

 

[201er]

You can't just log PIC by acting as safety pilot. You would have to act as PIC which means being responsible and fully qualified for the flight. You must have all ratings and endorsements, flight review, medical, and currency requirements met. Also you would probably need to be qualified for the insurance or flight school requirements for acting as PIC in that airplane. You would also require an instrument rating if on an instrument flight plan or in IMC. Once all of these requirements are met, you can both log PIC time for the length of time that he is flying under the hood as sole manipulator of the controls and you are acting as PIC of the airplane.

Otherwise yes, you can log SIC.

[galt1074]

Okay, so it sounds like I log PIC.

He was under goggles, I am fully qualified in the aircraft to include being instrument qualified and current on everything. It was "his airplane" in that I was flying on his dime and for his practice. So I guess he logs PIC time because he was manipulating the controls and I log PIC time because I was responsible for maintaining safe seperation and backing him up?

That to me sounds strange but you guys are better at this than me.

 

Greg

[N601RX]

You log PIC and he logs simulated instrument time.  An IFR rating is not required for someone to act as safety pilot, because the flight is not in IMC.  Since you are the PIC, you are responsible for all aspects of the flight. Be sure you are covered on his insurance either as a listed pilot or under the open pilot clause.

[bnicolette]

Both of you can log PIC.   Ahhhhhh the beauty of a view limiting device.  We used to do this often when we were building time.  "twofers"  the good old two for one.  

Worthwhile reading on this issue:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis%20Glenn.pdf

[201er]

Quote: galt1074

Okay, so it sounds like I log PIC.

He was under goggles, I am fully qualified in the aircraft to include being instrument qualified and current on everything. It was "his airplane" in that I was flying on his dime and for his practice. So I guess he logs PIC time because he was manipulating the controls and I log PIC time because I was responsible for maintaining safe seperation and backing him up?

That to me sounds strange but you guys are better at this than me.

[galt1074]

I'm commercial rated...don't think that applies.

[201er]

Yes, to the FAA it probably would be fine as commercial pilot. But then you'd have to make sure all other things pertaining to commercial operations such as a recent annual or hundred hour and other things begin to apply. Also it could be a big insurance issue if anything were to happen so a darned good reason to get named.

Just let me point out that you don't log PIC for being "responsible for maintaining safe seperation and backing him up?" That is SIC. The only way to both log PIC is if you are actually acting as pilot in command which means meeting all requirements and agreeing that you are pilot in command. This would make more sense in this scenario:

You are flying left seat in your own airplane. You did takeoff/landing and are clearly the PIC. In flight you tell your Private Pilot (with nothing else, not even complex) buddy to pop the hood on and act as auto pilot for the next 2 hours under the hood. Even though he is not complex and thus not qualified to act as PIC, he can still log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls (FAR 61.51ei). You still log PIC for the entire flight because you were acting as pilot in command (your plane, your complex, your responsibility). Likewise this can go the other way if you're in the right seat of someone else's plane but they have to bestow upon you acting as PIC which may not go well with their insurance unless you are named or meet the open pilot clause.

So my point is that the difference between logging PIC or SIC as safety pilot is the legal role you play even though you're really just doing the same thing keeping him from running into any one/thing.

[Cris]

Here is an easy tutorial http://www.flypierce.com/?page_id=760

[galt1074]

201er,

 

So in this case, he rents the aircraft and both of us are fully qualified in the aircraft and for the type of flight. He tells  me before we take off that I am the safety pilot but we never stated that I would be the PIC...though I did correct a couple things and help him with some local airspace since I've been here a while. In the best spirit of the intent of the CFR, what would you say I should log? I don't need the time, I've got more than I'll ever need to get a job after the Air Force, I just want to log it properly.

 

Greg

[201er]

Quote: N601RX

You log PIC and he logs simulated instrument time.  An IFR rating is not required for someone to act as safety pilot, because the flight is not in IMC.

[galt1074]

Quote: Cris

Here is an easy tutorial http://www.flypierce.com/?page_id=760

[201er]

Quote: galt1074

201er,

 

So in this case, he rents the aircraft and both of us are fully qualified in the aircraft and for the type of flight. He tells  me before we take off that I am the safety pilot but we never stated that I would be the PIC...though I did correct a couple things and help him with some local airspace since I've been here a while. In the best spirit of the intent of the CFR, what would you say I should log? I don't need the time, I've got more than I'll ever need to get a job after the Air Force, I just want to log it properly.

[galt1074]

Thanks Mike...it looks like I'll just log it as SIC time for now. Maybe next time I fly with the guy we'll actually make an agreement of some sort.

 

Greg

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: 201er

It is if you're filing IFR regardless of meteorological condition. In other words, if you're doing hood work in VMC but under IFR, then both pilot and safety pilot require instrument ratings.

Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR;

[201er]

Read what I wrote again and especially the regulation. It has nothing to do with meteorological condition nor the purpose of the training. It has to do with the flight rules under which the aircraft is being operated. If the flight is being performed under instrument flight rules in VMC, the safety pilot is required to have an instrument rating.

Example, an instrument rated pilot wants to shoot some approaches to assure instrument currency does not lapse. He grabs his non-instrument rated pilot friend to act as safety pilot. The sky condition is scattered 2,500. They can perform this flight under VFR but may be forced to dodge clouds. It might be preferable to do it IFR to be cleared into clouds and practice being in the system but since the safety pilot is not instrument rated, the flight cannot be performed with the instrument rated pilot under the hood.

[Cruiser]

Quote: galt1074

Okay, so it sounds like I log PIC.

He was under goggles, I am fully qualified in the aircraft to include being instrument qualified and current on everything. It was "his airplane" in that I was flying on his dime and for his practice. So I guess he logs PIC time because he was manipulating the controls and I log PIC time because I was responsible for maintaining safe seperation and backing him up?

That to me sounds strange but you guys are better at this than me.

 

Greg

[peter]

I'm curious, what avionics are in the panel of that Arrow II he was flying?  ;-)

[galt1074]

Oddly enough it was an Aspen PFD and MFD with Garmin 400 GPS and...now that you mention it I do think the radios were Bendix/King. I guess he knows the guy that runs Aspen Avionics and I just read they are partnering to finally release the MFD770. I  made a joke about this being a spy flight to steal the Aspen PFD architecture and he thought that was pretty funny.

Anyway guys, I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest but I think I could log PIC if we had agreed from the outset that I was in charge of the safe operation of the aircraft while he was under the hood...maybe I could anyway but since I don't really need the time I'll just log it as SIC I think.

 

Greg

[galt1074]

Peter,

You got me on that one. I forgot about your position and the fact that you probably already knew the answer to that question. I don't know if you know Kevin but he's a nice guy and I enjoyed flying with him.

Do you fly out of Cutter? I'll keep an eye out for your bird. I fly the Spec Ops MC-130s on the other side of the ramp when I'm not sneaking off to fly Del Sol's Arrow...I fly it about every other week or so and I love the PFD/MFD.

 

Greg

[galt1074]

double post