GaryP1007 Posted September 25, 2022 Report Posted September 25, 2022 Would love to hear from owners on preventative maintenance schedules they use for their Mooneys’. Schedule for battery replacement, mags, starter etc. I’m not a wait until it breaks person and would be curious to hear from similar minded owners. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
Rwsavory Posted September 25, 2022 Report Posted September 25, 2022 I use the Mooney Flyer status work sheet featured on this page. https://themooneyflyer.com/tools.html You can modify the suggested intervals as you see fit. For me, battery is on condition, but 4-5 years is a good benchmark. Mag and alternator iran at 500 hrs, etc. 2 Quote
M20F Posted September 25, 2022 Report Posted September 25, 2022 I recommend picking up Mike Busch’s 5 book series that discusses RCM (reliability centered maintenance) in detail. 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted September 25, 2022 Report Posted September 25, 2022 Others can do better than this, but the batteries should be tested at each annual. The capacity check tells you exactly where they are. As long as they pass, that’s a reasonable reference. If they aren’t being tested at annual, it’s complete guesswork. The shop needs a tester for your specific battery type. The standard for mags is 500 hours as long as they’re working fine. Send them for IRAN at 500 no matter if they’re still working or not. Those two preventative mx intervals work well. 2 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted September 25, 2022 Report Posted September 25, 2022 In my experience, batteries fail unexpectedly after 5-6 years.My starter failed after ~500 starts.Vacuum pump failed ~700 hours. 1 Quote
M20F Posted September 25, 2022 Report Posted September 25, 2022 2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said: In my experience, batteries fail unexpectedly after 5-6 years. My starter failed after ~500 starts. Vacuum pump failed ~700 hours. My Skytec starter failed the first landing after it got put on. Its replacement has 12yrs. My point is we can all push anecdotal information. It doesn’t mean much. 2 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted September 25, 2022 Report Posted September 25, 2022 Yeah starters and alternators are more difficult. Most people just go on condition. Hoses are another one to think about. Fuel, oil, etc. If you do the “normal” big ones, mags 500hr, vac pump 500 hr, starter, alternator & hoses at overhaul, battery cap checks, etc, a lot of the rest can be safely on condition - plugs, ignition harness, tires, brakes, etc. Quote
carusoam Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 Some items are fix-as-fail… battery has a capacity test, starters, alternators, VRs, lights… if they are dead or don’t pass the test… out they go… Others have known times they get tossed or OH’d… vac pumps get tossed at 500hrs… mags get OH’d at 500hrs… Some items are based on how you fly… IFR in IMC? No room for a pump failure… Some items are hard to tell they are failing… very worn out TCs soldier on in flat air… take them into the bumps… they are impossible to follow… sooo if you fly in IMC, and your back-up AI is an ancient worn TC… swap it out for something newer… Soooo many items have a MTBF number…. Mean time between failures… a statistical value that gives a hint of how robust something is…. in real life… it would be fair to cut the MTBF in half… and replace or service that item at the halfway point until better experience is gained… In the real world… vac pumps and mags have horrible MTBF rates…. With terrible downsides after they fail… a double whammy. This is a fun topic for mechanics and mechanical engineers working in manufacturing…. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or an ME… Best regards, -a- Quote
carusoam Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 To avoid swapping things too soon… Or have something fail early… Is pretty much why we are flying the certified airplanes…. And not the experimental ones…. We have reams of data and experience about what works for our Mooneys…. But, we are incredibly short when it comes to statistics on every item, on every Mooney, flown in every environment… That is pretty much why we have MS! Best regards, -a- Quote
WAFI Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 What's the rule on the electric fuel boost pump? Quote
LANCECASPER Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 On 9/25/2022 at 9:29 AM, GaryP1007 said: Would love to hear from owners on preventative maintenance schedules they use for their Mooneys’. Schedule for battery replacement, mags, starter etc. I’m not a wait until it breaks person and would be curious to hear from similar minded owners. A couple comments on the starter on your Ovation. Check and see what you have. Continental began to put in the lightweight Iskra starters sometime after 2000 and generally they are horrible on the starter adapters. If you haven't been down that road yet and have to repair or overhaul the starter adapter it's a good idea to go back to the legacy Energizer starters - they seem to be a lot kinder to the starter adapter. Also you are taking a chance using anything that makes the starter adapter slip (semi-Synthetic AeroShell oil, Camguard, Phillips Victory, etc). Those products have their merits but after doing a starter adapter on an Ovation I used to have and now an Acclaim, it's Phillips XC 20/50 for me. Quote
MatthiasArnold Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: Continental began to put in the lightweight Iskra starters sometime after 2000 and generally they are horrible on the starter adapters. If you haven't been down that road yet and have to repair or overhaul the starter adapter it's a good idea to go back to the legacy Energizer starters - they seem to be a lot kinder to the starter adapter. The IO550 starter topic was discussed here. Besides the Energizer starter also the "new" Hartzell/Skytec PM2407 starter was stated as good alternative, by @LANCECASPER and myself . I replaced the ISKRA by the PM2407 app. a year/90hrs ago as preventive measure. Works like a charm.. Quote
LANCECASPER Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 1 hour ago, MatthiasArnold said: The IO550 starter topic was discussed here. Besides the Energizer starter also the "new" Hartzell/Skytec PM2407 starter was stated as good alternative, by @LANCECASPER and myself . I replaced the ISKRA by the PM2407 app. a year/90hrs ago as preventive measure. Works like a charm.. Unfortunately I did not have the same experience with the PM2407. After less than 40 hours on the new PM2407 the starter adapter started slipping. (No doubt the Iskra being on there for nearly 200 caused some damage.) While looking for a place to repair my starter adapter, the people at Niagara Air parts and G & N Aircraft advised me against using the PM2407 telling me that since it's a PM (permanent magnet) starter that it doesn't turn forward or backward as smoothly as the Energizer and as it turns it "indexes" causing some friction. I sold the PM2407 and went to a new Energizer after the starter adaptor repair just to be sure 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 A battery capacity tester is just that, a load is applied over hours and battery voltage read on conclusion of the test. The load doesn’t change by battery type, those “testers” that look like a heater and can test a battery in seconds, are NOT capacity testers. Quote
EricJ Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 4 hours ago, WAFI said: What's the rule on the electric fuel boost pump? On condition. There's a drain hose/pipe/fitting at the left cowl flap, and if it is ever dripping fuel or of there is any leak evidence around the pump it is time to replace it. 1 Quote
WAFI Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 4 minutes ago, EricJ said: On condition. There's a drain hose/pipe/fitting at the left cowl flap, and if it is ever dripping fuel or of there is any leak evidence around the pump it is time to replace it. Thanks for the info... How about the mechanical fuel pump? Any potential signs of diminishing reliability? Quote
EricJ Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 Just now, WAFI said: Thanks for the info... How about the mechanical fuel pump? Any potential signs of diminishing reliability? Same thing, actually, there's a drain hose that exits at the bottom of the cowl, supposed to be out the left cowl flap. If it is dripping fuel or oil it means one of the diaphragms is leaking and the pump needs to be replaced. The crankcase breather tube exits at the left cowl flap and normally drips a little oil, and it's the large tube there. If any of the smaller tubes or drains around there are dripping anything it should be checked, as it is likely indicative of a problem. 2 Quote
Hank Posted September 28, 2022 Report Posted September 28, 2022 11 hours ago, carusoam said: Some items are fix-as-fail… battery has a capacity test, starters, alternators, VRs, lights… if they are dead or don’t pass the test… out they go… Others have known times they get tossed or OH’d… vac pumps get tossed at 500hrs… mags get OH’d at 500hrs… Some items are based on how you fly… IFR in IMC? No room for a pump failure… Some items are hard to tell they are failing… very worn out TCs soldier on in flat air… take them into the bumps… they are impossible to follow… sooo if you fly in IMC, and your back-up AI is an ancient worn TC… swap it out for something newer… Soooo many items have a MTBF number…. Mean time between failures… a statistical value that gives a hint of how robust something is…. in real life… it would be fair to cut the MTBF in half… and replace or service that item at the halfway point until better experience is gained… In the real world… vac pumps and mags have horrible MTBF rates…. With terrible downsides after they fail… a double whammy. This is a fun topic for mechanics and mechanical engineers working in manufacturing…. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or an ME… Best regards, -a- MTBF is a good number to know, says this ME over manufacturing. 11 hours ago, carusoam said: To avoid swapping things too soon… Or have something fail early… Is pretty much why we are flying the certified airplanes…. And not the experimental ones…. We have reams of data and experience about what works for our Mooneys…. But, we are incredibly short when it comes to statistics on every item, on every Mooney, flown in every environment… That is pretty much why we have MS! Best regards, -a- We are working to determine the MTBF of critical components here at work. Creating the records, every time something is worked on or replaced, is difficult on a 24 x 7 basis, but it is critical to having a complete, accurate database that can be checked to determine MTBF. The big question is, how much data is required? Hmmmm . . . . 1 Quote
carusoam Posted September 29, 2022 Report Posted September 29, 2022 15 hours ago, WAFI said: What's the rule on the electric fuel boost pump? This is also a question of what electric pump you have… Some are rated for continuous use… others are not… One had pump vanes that would self destruct, so it got a screen installed downstream… Pumps use seals to keep the mechanical parts from the wet parts… Mechanical pumps have two diaphragms… If anything fails… it leaves a blue stain on the ground…. The challenge is… stains on the ground can be hard to notice… Be familiar with all of the small exits around your cowling… Both pumps have drains that shouldn’t ever drip…. When it does, it is talking to you…. include the case vent, and sniffle valve in your thoughts… Best regards, -a- Quote
WAFI Posted September 29, 2022 Report Posted September 29, 2022 8 hours ago, carusoam said: This is also a question of what electric pump you have… Some are rated for continuous use… others are not… One had pump vanes that would self destruct, so it got a screen installed downstream… Pumps use seals to keep the mechanical parts from the wet parts… Mechanical pumps have two diaphragms… If anything fails… it leaves a blue stain on the ground…. The challenge is… stains on the ground can be hard to notice… Be familiar with all of the small exits around your cowling… Both pumps have drains that shouldn’t ever drip…. When it does, it is talking to you…. include the case vent, and sniffle valve in your thoughts… Best regards, -a- I'm going to look further into this now... I know I have a boost pump and not a "continuous fuel pump", POH says its for Starting, Take Off, & Landing. I tend to use it for any flight under 1000 agl and in moderate turbulence. Only in turbulence because it just makes me feel better. I have to admit though, I do forget to turn it back off sometimes. Quote
EricJ Posted September 29, 2022 Report Posted September 29, 2022 1 hour ago, WAFI said: I'm going to look further into this now... I know I have a boost pump and not a "continuous fuel pump", POH says its for Starting, Take Off, & Landing. I tend to use it for any flight under 1000 agl and in moderate turbulence. Only in turbulence because it just makes me feel better. I have to admit though, I do forget to turn it back off sometimes. It depends on what's in there now. Many get swapped out during maintenance to something that is okay for continuous use, but no change is made to the POH. 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted September 30, 2022 Report Posted September 30, 2022 13 hours ago, WAFI said: I'm going to look further into this now... I know I have a boost pump and not a "continuous fuel pump", POH says its for Starting, Take Off, & Landing. I tend to use it for any flight under 1000 agl and in moderate turbulence. Only in turbulence because it just makes me feel better. I have to admit though, I do forget to turn it back off sometimes. Unless I’m mistaken, and someone will correct me quickly, it doesn’t help the engine run any better. So in turbulence probably doesn’t help anything. However, if it’s helpful for your psyche, go for it. It’s there as a backup for the engine driven pump. Poh has it on for takeoff and landing as you might not have time to turn it on if you lost the mechanical pump at low altitude. if the engine were to suddenly die in turbulence, I would try the electric pump along with other things just as i would if it died in smooth air. Either one by itself is fine to provide plenty of fuel to the engine. 1 Quote
EricJ Posted September 30, 2022 Report Posted September 30, 2022 29 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Unless I’m mistaken, and someone will correct me quickly, it doesn’t help the engine run any better. So in turbulence probably doesn’t help anything. However, if it’s helpful for your psyche, go for it. It’s there as a backup for the engine driven pump. Poh has it on for takeoff and landing as you might not have time to turn it on if you lost the mechanical pump at low altitude. if the engine were to suddenly die in turbulence, I would try the electric pump along with other things just as i would if it died in smooth air. Either one by itself is fine to provide plenty of fuel to the engine. That's correct, it doesn't improve any performance when it's on, it just improves your chances substantially if there's a failure of the mechanical pump at low altitude. The main utility of replacing the older boost pumps with one rated for continuous use is that you don't have to freak out if you forget to turn it off. 2 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted September 30, 2022 Report Posted September 30, 2022 I’ve only needed the electric pump once. I paid someone else to work on my plane once (what was I thinking?). On the first flight after maintenance it seemed to work fine. When I turned off the boost pump the engine died. I turned it back on and immediately returned to the airport. One of the fuel lines was not even finger tight. I’m sure it was pumping fuel overboard, but it kept running. 1 Quote
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