LSA's - I don't see the point

[GeorgePerry]

A buddy of mine was looking into an LSA, specifically the Renegade Falcon and he wanted to know what I thought about it.  I didn't know too much about LSA's so I did some reading.  I was shocked to find out the following:

(1) You can't fly them in IMC even with an instrument ticket and proper aircraft equiptment.

(2) Many of the manufacturers don't even allow Night VMC flights per their operating hand books.

(3) Financing is hard, if not impossible to get for all but the most popular models.

(4) These things cost between $125-150K for a decent well equipped model

So my question (as rhetorical as it may be) is what's the point?  Unless you can't get a medical why would anyone buy one of these things?

[pjsny78]

I can only think of the medical aspect of it or people that really only want to go for a spin on a sunday afternoon. It will not do me any good.

[aerobat95]

I was thinking the same thing.....when these things were first brought up they were supposed to be a cheap way to fly...something like 60K....but what they are really going for is out of this world.  Another thing....why in the hell would you need a glass panel in one of these things.....stick with the basics and maybe they would be reasonable.  No need for a 60K panel.  If I couldn't get a medical....I would just fly an ultralight.

[PTK]

I've been wondering about this myself. Looking at strictly dollars it really makes no sense. And they probably depreciate rapidly as well.

[N601RX]

The LSA basically replaced the 2 seat ultralight class which had grown out of control.  A lot of people were doing stuff they should not have been doing with 2 seat ultralights. The 2 seat ultralights exemption was only allow for instructional use. Many of the LSA can also be purchased as Experimental ELSA  for a lot less than the LSA version.  The glass panels in these planes are not certfied and usually only cost around $4000 including the engine monitor. I would be very concerened about the long term stability of some of the companies selling these planes.

There are also a few older certified aircraft and some AB expermental that fit under the LSA umbrella. One of these might be a better option for your friend. 

[David Mazer]

As someone with an LSX (SeaRey), I can tell you that they are a) tons of fun with which to poke holes in the sky, very inexpensive per hour (mine is about $25/hr variable), c) quick to get into the sky (I'm flying in my LSX before I've completed my checklists in my Mooney), d) cheap to get if you buy used (my first cost $45k and is worth about $37k after 300 hrs and 3 yrs).

Since I fly it about 4 times a week, with no intention to get to a destination, speed doesn't mean anything.  An hour of flying that doesn't go too far from the airport and burns 4 gal of gas is just fine.  The ability to fly low, usually 500 ft or less, and slow while looking at wildlife or cruising the beach is perfect.

The glass panel is actually cheaper and lighter than steam in an LSX since it isn't certified you can use much less expensive glass.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: N601RX

The LSA basically replaced the 2 seat ultralight class which had grown out of control.  A lot of people were doing stuff they should not have been doing with 2 seat ultralights. The 2 seat ultralights exemption was only allow for instructional use. Many of the LSA can also be purchased as Experimental ELSA  for a lot less than the LSA version.  The glass panels in these planes are not certfied and usually only cost around $4000 including the engine monitor. I would be very concerened about the long term stability of some of the companies selling these planes.

There are also a few older certified aircraft that fit under the LSA umbrella. One of these might be a better option for your friend. 

[David Mazer]

I have the D-180 and it is a very nice unit that sells for about $3,500 with all the bells and whistles.  It is a good deal.

And, Progressive Aerodyne, the maker of SeaRey, has been in business since at least the early 90s.  As they say, past performance is no guarantee of future success.

[N601RX]

Quote: GeorgePerry

Everything I've seen, read and heard about the Dynon line of products has been top notch...basically Garmin capibility and reliabiliy at 1/5th the cost.  I wish they'd TSO the Skyview.

[kris_adams]

As I get closer to retirement, I'll be starting an RV12 (or equivalent). Sat in one a few weeks ago and really liked it. Hopefully won't be replacing the Mooney any time soon though!

[jetdriven]

The Cessna rep said to us at Oshkosh 

while we were sitting in the skycrasher, "they are for old men who are afraid to renew their medical, so they sell their Baron and buy an LSA.  Look here comes another one." unbelievable.  The CTLS is about the same price as a skycrasher and almost seems like a real airplane.

[Becca]

Agreed, we talked to several LSA reps and my own assessment is they are for wealthy old people and flight schools who I think are really suffering from an ever aging fleet.  The wealthy old person market, the $150k is a discount compared to whatever plane they sell when they start worrying about their medical, and they still want something with "new airplane smell".

What I was suprised by was how cheap, especially the Skycatcher, seemed.  The Skycatcher had no interior, at all, it was bare chairs and everything else was completely exposed to save weight.  At $150k, I'd want at least a little trim.  The Flight Design seemed like a nicer plane, but still pretty minimal for the price tag.

[GeorgePerry]

My personal favorite and a future father / son project is the Lightning LS.  http://www.flylightning.net/  I'm going to build the Exp version.

It comes in three flavors.  Experimental / Amature built, Experimental LSA and a turn key LSA.  As an Experimental it can be made IFR legal and will do 140-150 knots on about 5.5 GPH.  It looks pretty slick, it's built in the USA and their builders assist program (for the experimental versions) has you flying in less than three weeks.  As a guy who spent 1000+ hours and over 2 years building a Cozy IV and finnally selling a unfinished airframe in frustration, three weeks is a very appealing timeframe to get a project airborne.  I like building, I like composites, but kits that subsitute for a full time job isn't the way to go unless you're retired and have nothing better to do.

[jetdriven]

What is the cost of this builder assisted 150 knot version?

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: jetdriven

What is the cost of this builder assisted 150 knot version?

[jetdriven]

For 100k I can buy a 1977 J and enough gas for 750 hours.   Or a Champ and enough gas for 3000 hours.   

 

[201er]

Quote: jetdriven

For 100k I can buy a 1977 J and enough gas for 750 hours.   Or a Champ and enough gas for 3000 hours.   

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: jetdriven

For 100k I can buy a 1977 J and enough gas for 750 hours.   Or a Champ and enough gas for 3000 hours.   

 

[N33GG]

Speaking as perhaps one of the older pilots in the group, if the medical becomes an issue, LSA's suddenly have a point, and a very big point at that!

[jetdriven]

150k can hire a CFi to sit in the right seat for 10,000 hours also.  His medical then. 

 

[pjsny78]

Quote: GeorgePerry

 Byron your absolutely right and you'll have 2 additional seats...However you can't build a 77 M20J with your son, it won't have a modern panel, it can't get 25 smpg, and the J is 35 years old. 

Also as the builder of a kit you save on annual and maint costs as you can do those yourself.  I understand there are Pro's and cons to both (certified and Exp).  Dont' get me wrong I "still" love Mooneys and I'm going to have another one real soon (J or Missile) to move the family around in.  I want to build the lightning as a father / son project and to teach him to fly in.  Also when I don't need all 4 seats, I'll take the lightning and save gas.

[aerobat95]

George,

 

I think you have me sold on the Lightning....question for you.  Can you do aero in it?  also what about a constant speed prop? 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: aerobat95

I think you have me sold on the Lightning....question for you.  Can you do aero in it?  also what about a constant speed prop? 

[aerobat95]

Very interesting......I love the Mooney but I have thought about in the coming years to build something.  I was looking at the RV's as they are aerobatic.  But, this is definately interesting.  I didn't realize you had started building a kit plane.  I love tinkering....I am lucky that my A&P lets me help out on a lot of the work and love it.

[jamesm]

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Playing devil's advocate.... Many of posts have been based on  the assumption you can still pass the 3rd class physical and you would buy new as pose to used or  perhaps could go the E-LSA  route which be a little cheaper. I don't know about you all, but I can not justify my flying expense(s) but I don't try to either.   Beside the  great and friendly  people  in aviation with stories to share and  the wisdom and experience they provide. My passion for aviation and the freedom that it provides is what keeps me pursuing my passion for the  flying dream. I prefer not to think of time where I can no longer fly whether be too cost prohibitive or regulation bounding or lack of fuel availability or some misuse federal authority to revoke license (s) or misinterpret the spirit of the law or some physical condition or physical ailment that could take the flying dream all away. :-(

Just a different prospective.