Sensitive nose wheel steering

[Jpravi8tor]

Greetings members, I finally got to fly my F model and was pleased with everything except the nose wheel steering. The steering seems very sensitive and I found myself over correcting veering from side to side. This happened on landing roll out and I feel like my inexperience as a Mooney pilot is showing. What techniques need to be employed on landing? I’m thinking about keeping my feet off the rudder pedals until the aircraft slows. What say you braintrust.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, Jpravi8tor said:

I’m thinking about keeping my feet off the rudder pedals until the aircraft slows

Keep your feet on the rudder pedals.  That's not the answer.

[bcg]

I find with my C that the rudders are pretty responsive on the ground.  I typically just need to put a little right rudder in to go in a straight line, especially on takeoff or landing rollout.  If I start veering to the right, I just ease the pressure off the right rudder and it straightens itself out.  It just takes small corrections to get it going the right way, there's not a lot of slop in it so don't overreact.

[Jpravi8tor]

I’m used to a tiller and found myself dancing on the pedals

[David Lloyd]

Another related thread going on right now.   Read about Service Bulletin 202 for our older planes.   Mooneys are no more sensitive than any other planes provided everything is properly installed and adjusted.

 

[DXB]

What you describe isn't normal at all. +1 for SB 202: https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-202.pdf

Also, too much slop in the pedals can come from wear in the nose gear steering horn, which needs to be shimmed after 1000-2000 hours and then typically replaced the next time.  That often shows up as a shimmy in the nose wheel as you slow down.

[EricJ]

Check the nosewheel caster per SB M20-202, as previously mentioned.   Also, check for play in the steering horn in the truss.    

[Jpravi8tor]

The issue isnt tracking  the aircraft tracks straight the issue is the steering works really well and minor inputs equate to minor steering change big inputs tend to cause big directional changes. I,m thinking after landing apply even pressure on both pedals while applying brakes until the aircraft slows. I now have .4 hours of Mooney experience so was looking for techniques from you experienced Mooney pilots.

[Hank]

55 minutes ago, Jpravi8tor said:

The issue isnt tracking  the aircraft tracks straight the issue is the steering works really well and minor inputs equate to minor steering change big inputs tend to cause big directional changes. I,m thinking after landing apply even pressure on both pedals while applying brakes until the aircraft slows. I now have .4 hours of Mooney experience so was looking for techniques from you experienced Mooney pilots.

I keep off the brakes until I slow below 50. Be then, the flaps are up, to put weight on the wheels. I cam hold the throttle to idle, and reach the flaps switch with a finger.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Jpravi8tor said:

The issue isnt tracking  the aircraft tracks straight the issue is the steering works really well and minor inputs equate to minor steering change big inputs tend to cause big directional changes. I,m thinking after landing apply even pressure on both pedals while applying brakes until the aircraft slows. I now have .4 hours of Mooney experience so was looking for techniques from you experienced Mooney pilots.

I think what you're hearing is that what you're describing doesn't sound like normal behavior.    I can't think of anything in the rigging that would affect the steering rate, although you might look around to see if any of the pushrods have been attached improperly, etc.   Insufficient caster might still cause that, since it reduces the auto-center tendency of the nosewheel.   Or maybe you're just used to very ineffective steering?   

And +1 to wait until the flaps are up or you're slowed significantly before braking.  That shouldn't affect the steering sensitivity but it'll help keep it from getting squirrely due to brake lock up.

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, Jpravi8tor said:

Greetings members, I finally got to fly my F model and was pleased with everything except the nose wheel steering. The steering seems very sensitive and I found myself over correcting veering from side to side. This happened on landing roll out and I feel like my inexperience as a Mooney pilot is showing. What techniques need to be employed on landing? I’m thinking about keeping my feet off the rudder pedals until the aircraft slows. What say you braintrust.

Are you coming from a Cessna or an aircraft with a free-castering nosewheel??

If so, the rudder pedals are going to feel SUPER sensitive to you with the direct nosewheel connection until you get muscle memory.  If you only have 0.4 hours, getting an instructor to get transitioned is never a bad idea (and required in most people's minds).

Another foible you may need to learn is rapidly centering the pedals when the nosewheel touches down in crosswinds, since the rudder and nosewheel have different yaw control strength

Edited September 6, 2022 by jaylw314

[bcg]

8 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Are you coming from a Cessna or an aircraft with a free-castering nosewheel??

If so, the rudder pedals are going to feel SUPER sensitive to you with the direct nosewheel connection until you get muscle memory.  If you only have 0.4 hours, getting an instructor to get transitioned is never a bad idea (and required in most people's minds).

Another foible you may need to learn is rapidly centering the pedals when the nosewheel touches down in crosswinds, since the rudder and nosewheel have different yaw control strength

Exactly.  I was flying a 172 where I would consider the rudders more steering guidance on the ground than actual steering.  Compared to that, the Mooney is VERY sensitive.  I think he said he was flying a tailwheel so, it's going to be a HUGE difference.

[PT20J]

This might be normal. The Mooney steering is pretty quick and the pedals are directly coupled to the steering without the bungees used in some other airplanes making it very sensitive to pedal inputs. Also, the Mooney steering mechanism has many wear points and can develop slop after a while which causes a dead zone around the center point which can cause it to wander a bit at taxi speeds. A MSC should be able to look it over and correct any deficiencies. I recently had a shim added to mine (not the shim that changes caster — different shim) that greatly improved this.

Skip

[good2eat]

As a recently transitioned owner, I understand exactly what you are experiencing.  Coming from a 172, my Mooney is incredibly more reactive to input.  The first thing I had to learn was to stay at the bottom of the rudder pedals to keep from activating the brakes before I wanted/needed to.  This also keeps most of my foot on the floor and allows much more shuttle steering inputs.  It takes some practice but you’ll get it.

[carusoam]

There are probably a dozen things like this that are different….

Transition Training usually covers them all….

The fun part of TT…

You get a Mooney CFII in your plane…. As he goes through all the motions… he can tell you what is right, not right, or what the heck is going on with that….   

 

First time with a nose wheel attached directly to your feet with control tubes… no sloppy cables….

You can precisely follow a yellow line…

 

If you fly a LB with rudder trim….    That’s like using a tiller following the same yellow line! 

 

Soooo… if you like the tiller aspect and this nosewheel steering is getting in your way….

Transition to a Long Body!

If you haven’t done any transition training… consider getting some… there is sooo much fine detail you can’t find written in a book….

It is priceless to have a knowledgable CFII fly your plane to see what is right and not so right…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Jpravi8tor]

I'm currently flying a Falcon 900LX with a tiller for steering and hydraulically boosted controls. I use the tiller up to 80 knots then transition to the rudders for steering authority.

when landing typical speeds are 125 knots where I control the aircraft with rudder inputs and braking until the aircraft slow to about 60 knots then transition to the tiller.

This is why I made the statement about dancing on the rudder pedals. I will learn how to tame the nosewheel steering in time, I will only land on wide runways until then.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences.

[Ragsf15e]

10 minutes ago, Jpravi8tor said:

I'm currently flying a Falcon 900LX with a tiller for steering and hydraulically boosted controls. I use the tiller up to 80 knots then transition to the rudders for steering authority.

when landing typical speeds are 125 knots where I control the aircraft with rudder inputs and braking until the aircraft slow to about 60 knots then transition to the tiller.

This is why I made the statement about dancing on the rudder pedals. I will learn how to tame the nosewheel steering in time, I will only land on wide runways until then.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences.

One important thing covered above that’s related to steering… there’s usually not a reason to use brakes until you’re preparing to turn off the runway.  Land on speed and on your aim point, you’ll find it’s still a very short roll without brakes.  Wait until definitely less than 50, maybe closer to 30 and everything’s easier.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Jpravi8tor said:

I'm currently flying a Falcon 900LX with a tiller for steering and hydraulically boosted controls. I use the tiller up to 80 knots then transition to the rudders for steering authority.

when landing typical speeds are 125 knots where I control the aircraft with rudder inputs and braking until the aircraft slow to about 60 knots then transition to the tiller.

This is why I made the statement about dancing on the rudder pedals. I will learn how to tame the nosewheel steering in time, I will only land on wide runways until then.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences.

As Rags said above, try to stay off the brakes as long as possible.  I have had trouble using the rudder pedals without inadvertently getting on the brakes.  I got some Merrill shoes with extremely flexible soles so I can stay low on the rudder pedals (size 14 feet).  My airplane has 1.5 inch rudder pedal extensions, and I may try removing those as well.  Or I may just get used to it.

[A64Pilot]

I keep saying this, but go get yourself some tailwheel dual, you’ll learn rudder much better and besides it’s fun in warm weather, but once you tame a tailwheel the Mooney will be easy.

[Shadrach]

As others have stated it could just be your newness to the bird, but it could also be the castor position of the nose wheel. Excessive negative castor gives minimal steering feedback (feels almost binary as in max turn or no turn), minimal steering effort, and rapid turn in and the least amount of straight line stability. 

The plane should track straight, should cease turning when turn inputs are ceased, should be easy to S-turn down the runway in an even and controlled fashion. You should not need to make counter steering inputs to stop a previous turn input.

M20-202 is an easy SB to perform in the whole scheme of things and will ensure you’re steering geometry is not set up for negative castor.

[skykrawler]

M20-202, as Shadrach says.    The collar on my J is upside down (from previous work somebody did) so its a little twitchy.  But I've gotten used to it.  Having a few take-off and landings in a Merlin and a B350 I don't think my M20 is any more twitchy - they just have more inertia.   It's more like a lean on the pedal than a push.

 

[David Lloyd]

There's twitchy and there's out of control.  Depends on the amount of nose wheel caster set by year, SB compliance, proper assembly and hand made parts.  Not fixing it properly can lead to broken parts: rudder torque tube lever arm.  I had that happen 40 years ago.  I saw another at AGL in April or May.

[Jpravi8tor]

Here is my collar, I am going to disassemble and overhaul the gear next so keep the comments about my ugly gear to a minimum please

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, Jpravi8tor said:

Here is my collar, I am going to disassemble and overhaul the gear next so keep the comments about my ugly gear to a minimum please

No one is going to be able to offer much advice by looking at pictures of the collar. Following the SB Procedure is the only way to know.

[Jpravi8tor]

I wasn’t sure if the collar was thick side down or up?

it appears to be installed upside down in this picture,

and yes I will perform sb202 just furthering the conversation