GAMI Unleaded gets approval

[carusoam]

22 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Finally someone asked the right question. Will I be able to throw G100UL in my powertow?

I asked, and JP responded…

There seem to be many applications that are available including race cars… and other vehicles that prefer the high octane fuels…

The power tow may be a touch more challenging to start on wicked cold days though….

Low octane, has more volatiles…

High octane, has fewer volatiles…

The easy to evaporate volatiles… make starting easier on cold days, without pre-heat…

 

PP thoughts only, not a combustion engineer…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Needing to go up a jet size when using 100LL in your race bike…

Implies that there was a change of viscosity…(?)

I asked JP, and he responded…

No change to fuel injectors are required… in this case going from 100LL to GU100

Just when I was expecting to NEED a set of Gami-jectors… 

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

Fun fact that a lot of people don’t know… there are oil drilling and pumping rigs all over down town LA. They’re just disguised.
Dots are wells.  The other picture is signal hill in 1924.
 
 

The high school i went to had two oil wells - not disguised then. Paid for several enhancements most high schools didn’t have like a planetarium and a gymnasium with a moving floor that uncovered a swimming pool or covered it for a basket ball court and more…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ilovecornfields]

3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

The high school i went to had two oil wells - not disguised then. Paid for several enhancements most high schools didn’t have like a planetarium and a gymnasium with a moving floor that uncovered a swimming pool or covered it for a basket ball court and more…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You sure that wasn’t a Simpson’s episode?

 

[carusoam]

20 hours ago, Canadian Gal said:

Here are some statistics.

 

100% of vegetarians will die.

 

100% of joggers will die.

 

Going to the gym is a good source of catching a cold and flu.

 

So eat meat, and don't work out or run.

 

That is how ridiculous most statistics are.

 

My work is in the health care field.

 

Some doctors are brilliant, some dumb as a bag of rocks, the majority are just regular women and men.

 

What I've noticed is that often the humblest ones, who are open to listening, are the most brilliant.

Those who are sure that they are always correct, and refuse to listen to both sides of a discussion, are the dumb ones.

My father told me this many times growing up " A man who is sure his way is the only way, is usually wrong ".

I have done some study myself…

1) I asked a friend at work… if he ever considered not smoking…

he cleverly responded… we all have to die from something…

 

2) I know a guy… that would run 7 minute miles because the high school kids were doing it for baseball and soccer…. Their coach was clear that this was a kid’s requirement… not for the dads…

Lesson learned… make sure you use a good doctor to approve your exercise activities…

 

3) The important lesson gained…

We can do a lot of things and get away with it…

If you want to live past the usual retirement age…

Diet, exercise, and minimize exposure to things that can shorten your life…

4) Since we fly airplanes, because we can… we minimize our exposure to many more dangerous aspects of this same activity…

Things to avoid…

• VFR flight in IMC
• Running out of gas
• Flying into icing conditions
• Flying into thunderstorms

In the early 80s… I worked in a chemical factory… changing out overhead filters on the weekends… organic solvents really dry out your skin…  while your skin readily absorbs the chemistry…

 

If you get the choice… I think it is better to croak later, than sooner… 

When the time comes…

• Cancer sucks…
• Heart attacks usually don’t hurt for very long… 

 

Very few Mooniacs have flown on their 100th birthday…

It takes a lot of prep…

Make it happen!

Go MSers!

 

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

You sure that wasn’t a Simpson’s episode?

 

No, nor did students get any say. But hint. Very small school district and the student parking garage had a few Corvettes, Porsches and other exotic cars you wouldn't expect to see driven by HS students. Not me though, I rode a bike to school and didn't get a car till I left town for college. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Needing to go up a jet size when using 100LL in your race bike…

Implies that there was a change of viscosity…(?)

I asked JP, and he responded…

No change to fuel injectors are required… in this case going from 100LL to GU100

Just when I was expecting to NEED a set of Gami-jectors… 

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

You must at least have the TCM precision tunes injectors. Not as good as Gami's but often good enough. But without at least those virtually any IO-550 will have a spread of at least 0.8 GPH.

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

No, nor did students get any say. But hint. Very small school district and the student parking garage had a few Corvettes, Porsches and other exotic cars you wouldn't expect to see driven by HS students. Not me though, I rode a bike to school and didn't get a car till I left town for college. 

I think you let me borrow that car once!

Our student parking lot also had much nicer cars than the teacher lot. Wonder if that was a San Diego thing.

[A64Pilot]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Needing to go up a jet size when using 100LL in your race bike…

Implies that there was a change of viscosity…(?)

I asked JP, and he responded…

No change to fuel injectors are required… in this case going from 100LL to GU100

Just when I was expecting to NEED a set of Gami-jectors… 

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

You wouldn’t need to change anything on an airplane because your mixture is adjustable, so long as you can get rich enough, but I think you would need to adjust the servo not an injector change then

‘But I was speaking about running 100LL vs pump gas, not the Gami fuel.

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Low octane, has more volatiles…

High octane, has fewer volatiles…

That is not true as a blanket statement. Octane and volatiles are two totally different things.  All that octane tells you is the resistance to detonation.  NOTHING else.

Toluene is very volatile, but high octane. (MON 107, RON 121).  

Auto fuel is blending to different vapor pressures for different conditions, making cold starting easier.  IF you have a winter blend fuel.  If you fill up in the middle of summer, and not use up that fuel, it will be just as hard to start on summer auto gas and avgas in the winter.

[N201MKTurbo]

20 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

That is not true as a blanket statement. Octane and volatiles are two totally different things.  All that octane tells you is the resistance to detonation.  NOTHING else.

Toluene is very volatile, but high octane. (MON 107, RON 121).  

Auto fuel is blending to different vapor pressures for different conditions, making cold starting easier.  IF you have a winter blend fuel.  If you fill up in the middle of summer, and not use up that fuel, it will be just as hard to start on summer auto gas and avgas in the winter.

When an oil refinery guy talks about volatiles, they are usually talking about the lighter fractions like butane, not aromatics like toluene.  

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When an oil refinery guy talks about volatiles, they are usually talking about the lighter fractions like butane, not aromatics like toluene.  

But the post I was replying to implied a vapor pressure difference based on octane.

BTW, butane has an octane rating around 94.  And is a gas at room temperature.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

But the post I was replying to implied a vapor pressure difference based on octane.

BTW, butane has an octane rating around 94.  And is a gas at room temperature.

 

Almost all MOGAS has butane. they use it to raise the vapor pressure in the winter. it is cheap and would be a waste product and sent to the reformer if it couldn't be used directly. The Butane dissolves in the other hydrocarbons. Like sodapop bubbles. And of course you are right about octane number and volatility, they have nothing to do with each other.

[hais]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:20 AM, Will.iam said:

Yea i wonder if technology will produce a different mode of transportation before everyone has to revert to riding a horse. Would be freakish to time travel into the future only to see mankind back to where we were before the discovery of oil. 

My invention: put the horse on a hamster wheel, connect that to the prop. I will call that "a horse powered non-geared direct drive"

[T. Peterson]

7 hours ago, Pinecone said:

That is not true as a blanket statement. Octane and volatiles are two totally different things.  All that octane tells you is the resistance to detonation.  NOTHING else.

Toluene is very volatile, but high octane. (MON 107, RON 121).  

Auto fuel is blending to different vapor pressures for different conditions, making cold starting easier.  IF you have a winter blend fuel.  If you fill up in the middle of summer, and not use up that fuel, it will be just as hard to start on summer auto gas and avgas in the winter.

Very interesting. I learn much on this forum. Thank you.

[Fly Boomer]

21 hours ago, carusoam said:

1) I asked a friend at work… if he ever considered not smoking…

he cleverly responded… we all have to die from something…

Old guy (he was probably 50 at the time) who worked for me was a smoker and he said "Sooner or later, something is going to get you, and you're not going to like it."

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, Pinecone said:

That is not true as a blanket statement. Octane and volatiles are two totally different things.  All that octane tells you is the resistance to detonation.  NOTHING else.

Toluene is very volatile, but high octane. (MON 107, RON 121).  

Auto fuel is blending to different vapor pressures for different conditions, making cold starting easier.  IF you have a winter blend fuel.  If you fill up in the middle of summer, and not use up that fuel, it will be just as hard to start on summer auto gas and avgas in the winter.

Maybe the higher Octane’s slower burn rate is what he was thinking about?

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/combustion-basics-how-does-fuel-make-a-difference/

Maybe 30 years ago VW published that burning Premium in their cars not only wasn’t necessary  but due to its slower flame propagation actually resulted in a slight decrease in power output and slightly less fuel milage.

Aviation fuel has a higher vapor pressure than car gas and would make it harder starting than auto fuel, but I believe different winter and summer blends of car gas is for emissions, not ease of starting?  Although it’s probably an unintended benefit.

https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/what-is-the-difference-between-winter-summer-fuels/

[Pinecone]

From all my reading, octane being related to burn rate is also an OWT.

Octane testing measures ONE thing.  Resistance to detonation.

Do some higher octane fuels have slower burn rates that some lower octane fuels?  Sure.  But the reverse can also be true.

Detonation occurs when under heat and pressure, the fuel spontaneously ignites, so you get multiple, uncontrolled, flame fronts.

[John-Paul]

23 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Maybe the higher Octane’s slower burn rate is what he was thinking about?

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/combustion-basics-how-does-fuel-make-a-difference/

Maybe 30 years ago VW published that burning Premium in their cars not only wasn’t necessary  but due to its slower flame propagation actually resulted in a slight decrease in power output and slightly less fuel milage.

Aviation fuel has a higher vapor pressure than car gas and would make it harder starting than auto fuel, but I believe different winter and summer blends of car gas is for emissions, not ease of starting?  Although it’s probably an unintended benefit.

https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/what-is-the-difference-between-winter-summer-fuels/

Higher vapor pressure tends to make starting easier, not harder.  Vapor pressure tends to depress in colder weather, so butane is often added to mogas to raise the vapor pressure to make starting in the winter easier.   Unfortunately, a winter blend of fuel carried over to the summer will see its butane come out of solution in a vented receptacle at the higher ambient temperatures.  That will cause the vapor pressure to drop and can lead to a vapor lock situation.

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, John-Paul said:

Higher vapor pressure tends to make starting easier, not harder.  Vapor pressure tends to depress in colder weather, so butane is often added to mogas to raise the vapor pressure to make starting in the winter easier.   Unfortunately, a winter blend of fuel carried over to the summer will see its butane come out of solution in a vented receptacle at the higher ambient temperatures.  That will cause the vapor pressure to drop and can lead to a vapor lock situation.

Almost.

The butane (or other volatiles) coming out due to a combination of temperature and pressure is what causes vapor lock.

Once those leave, the fuel has a lower vapor pressure that is less prone to vapor lock.

Aircraft fuels have a lower maximum vapor pressure to prevent vapor lock due to flying higher and to a warmer area.

Cars used to have issues if you ended up with a higher vapor pressure fuel in warmer weather.   Modern cars do not have issues because the fuel pump is in the tank, so all the lines are under pressure.

[A64Pilot]

When you Certify a new aircraft or even sometimes a new engine in an aircraft you have to do a hot fuel test flight looking for vapor lock, we had to heat the fuel to at least 110F and climb to 12,000 ft, our max Certified operating altitude. I had to monitor and record fuel temp to ensure it didn’t drop below 110F during the test.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.961

The first time we used heat lamps to get to the temp by heating the underside of the wing, but that took literally all night, after that I used a turkey fryer and put a large auto transmission cooler in it and pumped the fuel through the cooler while boiling water in the turkey cooker, that would heat a couple hundred gallons of fuel in an hour or two.

We even had to take samples of the fuel to prove that the heating didn’t change the vapor pressure, which of course it could if you took too long heating it up.

As Avgas is an alternate fuel for the PT6 engine and Avgas is worst case for vapor lock, I got a free couple hundred gallons of Avgas left over after the that test.

[Pinecone]

Back when I was instructing they ran a gypsy moth spray operation off our field.  They had two Ayres Turbo Thrushes and a Cessna Ag Wagon.

I loved the fuel placards on the Thrushes.  Use ONLY - Jet A, Jet A-1, Jet-B, Jet-B1, JP-4, JP-5, Kerosine #2, #2 Diesel Fuel, #2 Home Heating Oil, AVGAS 100LL, AVGAS 100/130, AVGAS 91/96, AVGAS 80/87, MOGAS......

I LOVED the ONLY, then the choices wrapped around the filler port a couple of times.  I think the only thing liquid and flammable they missed was Vodka

They did the operation using Home Heating Oil.  One of the local companies sent a truck every day or two to fill up their fuel truck.  They bought 100LL for the Cessna from the FBO.

[A64Pilot]

20 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Back when I was instructing they ran a gypsy moth spray operation off our field.  They had two Ayres Turbo Thrushes and a Cessna Ag Wagon.

I loved the fuel placards on the Thrushes.  Use ONLY - Jet A, Jet A-1, Jet-B, Jet-B1, JP-4, JP-5, Kerosine #2, #2 Diesel Fuel, #2 Home Heating Oil, AVGAS 100LL, AVGAS 100/130, AVGAS 91/96, AVGAS 80/87, MOGAS......

I LOVED the ONLY, then the choices wrapped around the filler port a couple of times.  I think the only thing liquid and flammable they missed was Vodka

They did the operation using Home Heating Oil.  One of the local companies sent a truck every day or two to fill up their fuel truck.  They bought 100LL for the Cessna from the FBO.

Most of those fuels are still allowable, but there is no more #2Diesel, it’s just ULSD now that’s significantly more expensive than Jet-A, plus the dirtier fuels like home heating oil are allowed but it’s not saving money, the dirtier fuels clog up the fuel nozzles much quicker and if you don’t keep them clean it makes hot spots and can damage the burner cans etc., then your into REAL money. So having your nozzles removed and cleaned twice as often wipes out the cheaper fuel.

We did all the work to Certify the aircraft for Bio- home heating oil for Brazil, but the Cert died when Brazil‘s Government removed the subsidy. You can’t have any copper, bronze or brass in your fuel system for Bio, we got the most data from John Deere, who knows more about Bio fuel than anyone it seems.

So almost no one burns anything but Jet anymore.

It’s a statement of the new world order I guess that Jet is cheaper than tax free red dyed tractor Diesel.

ULSD, 15 PPM of sulphur, Jet-A, usually between 400 -800 PPM of sulphur.

I think eventually ULS Jet will be mandated, and it presumably raise expense of Jet like it did Diesel, which will blow the roof off of airline ticket prices, so we will see.

Remember Diesel used to be significantly less expensive that regular gasoline, now it’s what over $1 a gl more?

The Garret engine fuel control has an adjustment screw with markings to adjust for the specific gravity of the fuel, that thing will I believe burn just about anything, most engines have a time limit on leaded fuel though, the concern is lead build up could cause balance problems in the turbines.

[Pinecone]

45 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Most of those fuels are still allowable, but there is no more #2Diesel, it’s just ULSD now that’s significantly more expensive than Jet-A, plus the dirtier fuels like home heating oil are allowed but it’s not saving money, the dirtier fuels clog up the fuel nozzles much quicker and if you don’t keep them clean it makes hot spots and can damage the burner cans etc., then your into REAL money. So having your nozzles removed and cleaned twice as often wipes out the cheaper fuel.

We did all the work to Certify the aircraft for Bio- home heating oil for Brazil, but the Cert died when Brazil‘s Government removed the subsidy. You can’t have any copper, bronze or brass in your fuel system for Bio, we got the most data from John Deere, who knows more about Bio fuel than anyone it seems.

So almost no one burns anything but Jet anymore.

It’s a statement of the new world order I guess that Jet is cheaper than tax free red dyed tractor Diesel.

ULSD, 15 PPM of sulphur, Jet-A, usually between 400 -800 PPM of sulphur.

I think eventually ULS Jet will be mandated, and it presumably raise expense of Jet like it did Diesel, which will blow the roof off of airline ticket prices, so we will see.

Remember Diesel used to be significantly less expensive that regular gasoline, now it’s what over $1 a gl more?

The Garret engine fuel control has an adjustment screw with markings to adjust for the specific gravity of the fuel, that thing will I believe burn just about anything, most engines have a time limit on leaded fuel though, the concern is lead build up could cause balance problems in the turbines.

This was in 1983, so a while ago.

Hmm, around here diesel is cheaper than Jet A.  And you can get diesel for farm use a bit cheaper since you are not paying road taxes.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

This was in 1983, so a while ago.

Hmm, around here diesel is cheaper than Jet A.  And you can get diesel for farm use a bit cheaper since you are not paying road taxes.

The Ag guys get bulk Jet-A cheap, most have at least a 5,000 gl tank and buy a truckload at a time.

‘Pretty sure they get $2 a gl break over FBO prices or more.

Unless things have changed which I don’t think they have.

Cheapest Jet near me is $4.60

Average Fl Diesel is $4.93

Average Fl gas is $3.60, up .50c from a month ago.

But that’s with road and whatever other taxes there are.

Cheapest 100LL near me is also $4.60, even 100LL is cheaper than Diesel.

The Ag guys get Jet tax free just like Farm Diesel, but I don’t know how the taxes compare.

If your really curious this Congressional testimony by the NAAA president ref fuel may be interesting.

He states a tanker is 7,800 gls and an operator may keep 10,000 gls on hand.

https://smallbusiness.house.gov/uploadedfiles/richter_testimony.pdf