ANOTHER PATTERN COLLISION - NOT M20

[DCarlton]

I say this every time, but I can't get my head around the frequency of accidents now.  Either the news is doing an excellent job or accidents are up.  Another engine out near KSEE this week and now this one in NORCAL.  Gotta wonder if it's the uptick in training and pilot transitions.    

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fatalities-reported-2-planes-collide-232613620.html

[Pinecone]

Read about this one on BT>

340 was over 180 knots on short final from a long straight in.

[ilovecornfields]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Read about this one on BT>

340 was over 180 knots on short final from a long straight in.

It’s pretty disturbing. They have a link to the audio there where the 152 says he’s going around because the 340 is coming up too quickly behind him. That was his last transmission. 

At PRB (Paso Robles) I’ve never seen a jet fly the pattern or give way to anyone else in the pattern. I know a 340 isn’t a jet but it seems like he had the same mindset that he was going to do a straight in and everyone else better just get out of the way.

[Danb]

Disheartening 

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

At PRB (Paso Robles) I’ve never seen a jet fly the pattern or give way to anyone else in the pattern. I know a 340 isn’t a jet but it seems like he had the same mindset that he was going to do a straight in and everyone else better just get out of the way.

I'm sorry that your experience at PRB with jets is so bad.  I can assure you that when a jet driver, I had exactly the same the same goal as everyone else in the pattern:  a safe operation.  I have done many (many!) go arounds, and extended patterns to accomodate slower traffic that had the right of way and many that didn't.  A VFR pattern is a "high-tension event" when flying a jet into an uncontrolled environment.  Mr. Moneybags, in the back, pays a lot of money for a safe flight, that's what his pilots are providing.  Being first, fastest, or badest is nowhere on the list of priorities.

As an aside, thank you to the many (many!) pilots who voluntairily gave way in the interest of efficiency and safety.

[alexz]

I still see many planes that don't have ADSB-out system installed or operating properly, this will at least give a chance the ones equipped with ADSB-in system to see and avoid those equipped when visuals fail or one plane mistaken for another. That's said 180kts on final sounds little excessive.... 

[DCarlton]

3 minutes ago, alexz said:

I still see many planes that don't have ADSB-out system installed or operating properly, this will at least give a chance the ones equipped with ADSB-in system to see and avoid those equipped when visuals fail or one plane mistaken for another. That's said 180kts on final sounds little excessive.... 

ADSB is great but I don't think it would have helped with this one.  Same with the collision at KVGT.  The tower couldn't even stop that one.  

[GeeBee]

This is spine chilling. Go to the 24 minute mark. N740WJ is the C340. N49931 is the C152.

https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWVI2-Aug-18-2022-2130Z.mp3

[DCarlton]

10 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

This is spine chilling. Go to the 24 minute mark. N740WJ is the C340. N49931 is the C152.

https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWVI2-Aug-18-2022-2130Z.mp3

I'm not even sure what the lesson learned is here.  The 152 must have been under the nose of the 340 and they couldn't see him.  What more could he have done other than make an abnormal hard turn on short final to get out of the way.  

[Ragsf15e]

12 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

This is spine chilling. Go to the 24 minute mark. N740WJ is the C340. N49931 is the C152.

https://archive.liveatc.net/kwvi/KWVI2-Aug-18-2022-2130Z.mp3

Ouch.  Seems like the -152 saw the 340 behind him as he turned final but the 340 never saw the 152…

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, DCarlton said:

I'm not even sure what the lesson learned is here.  The 152 must have been under the nose of the 340 and they couldn't see him.  What more could he have done other than make an abnormal hard turn on short final to get out of the way.  

Well I think the lesson learned (again) is that the 340 probably shouldn’t have entered an active traffic pattern on a straight in (fast) without being very careful to give way to those already established.  I fly corporate to uncontrolled fields.  I will use straight ins at times, but the hair starts to stand on the back of my neck.  Radio, adsb, and visual clearing became much more important.  I want to see everyone in the pattern or know exactly where they are from their position reports or I’ll go to a 45 downwind. If someone’s on base when you’re on final, like you’ve got to see them or deconflict immediately.

[GeeBee]

The lesson? Here are a few ideas

1. Don't enter the pattern at the speed of heat. If you are too fast, stay high, overfly and get it under control, then enter the pattern.

2. Don't do straight in approaches in VFR with other aircraft in the pattern. Fly the pattern so you can get in sequence and sequence allows you to better discern the traffic.

The C340 was going too fast for a straight in, especially with other traffic in the pattern.

[GeeBee]

I used to fly 737s and 757 on college football charters into uncontrolled fields. The toughest was KSTF for MS State. I always flew the full pattern at 1500' agl at no faster than 180 knots just so I could get a feel and look for the traffic in the pattern. As Mooney Mite says, a lot of very nice and accommodating folks out there. If you show the courtesy of respecting the pattern, you'll get it back. I have to say however, the 757 due to its massive and well known wake would usually clear the pattern, I always felt bad about doing that.

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I used to fly 737s and 757 on college football charters into uncontrolled fields. The toughest was KSTF for MS State. I always flew the full pattern at 1500' agl at no faster than 180 knots just so I could get a feel and look for the traffic in the pattern. As Mooney Mite says, a lot of very nice and accommodating folks out there. If you show the courtesy of respecting the pattern, you'll get it back. I have to say however, the 757 due to its massive and well known wake would usually clear the pattern, I always felt bad about doing that.

Interesting to see your thoughts about KSTF.  I'm an old MSU Bulldog.  Used to work at the Raspet Flight Lab in College.   

Regarding being unsure of the lesson learned...  I actually meant for the 152.   What could he have done other than make a hard left or right and get off final quickly.  Would have been an unusual move.  

We have a couple of uncontrolled fields near my home airport that are used heavily for training.  I don't go there unless absolutely necessary. It's a rats nest every day.  I usually extend my downwind a little just to get people off my ass for spacing.  Others in the pattern don't like it.  Haven't figured out how to better handle that either (planes crowding you from the rear and not allowing enough spacing).  

[GeeBee]

The 152 certainly had the right of way as he was already lower but it is like any vehicle. You have to act defensively and never insist on the right of way, even though you have it. (In boating it is called "Rule 6" you have a duty to avoid collision even if you have the right of way) When I hear somebody doing a straight in while in the pattern, I don't turn base until I have positive visual identification of their position and speed.  Usually by that time it is easier to give way anyway.  The 152 turned base, but I don't think he saw the 340 until well into the base leg then he turned final thinking it would still work, but the overtake was too fast. Rather than turn final, he should have went across the final, then turned left to parallel the runaway and made left traffic. Unfortunately pilots are have it beat into them "don't overshoot final". In a single runway situation, yeah, you can overshoot final, because sometimes it is required. I think the 152 thought he had to complete his pattern and in normal speeds it might have been right, but the 340 was closing too fast and that miscalculation got them both.

In addition, experienced and professional pilots have a duty to watch out for students. When I hear inexperience or I see it is a trainer, I assume they are inexperienced and I give them all the courtesy I can as they are struggling to control the airplane let alone watch out for me. Their field of view and SA is narrow. You cannot expect them to view the pattern as easily as you.  

[Marauder]

Juan did a nice YouTube video on this crash this morning. The 340 was reported to be flying at 180 knots ground speed a few miles out on final. I feel for the 150 pilot because he recognized the closure.

At my airport, we have a mix of trainers, gliders and the potpourri of GA aircraft. I remember a situation where there were two trainers in the pattern. One just turning downwind from crosswind and another just departing. I hate to say this, but a Mooney announced an extended downwind entry. He was showing 155 knots ground speed. He gobbled up the 150 on downwind and did a 360 to get back on downwind and was head on with the second 150 who turning downwind from crosswind. I got on the frequency and told the Mooney pilot to break off his entry. I got to watch all this on TIS-B while I was shooting the approach.

When the Mooney got on the ground I approached him. He was upset that he had to give way to the 150s. I think sometimes pilots forget what it is like to be a trainee and that they need to apply common sense.

Now don’t get me started on the RV guys who feel compelled to do these overhead break right shenanigans.


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[OR75]

Sadly , a basic 91.13 (a) violation 

[chriscalandro]

ADSB absolutely could have prevented this. The 150 didn’t see the 340 when he turned base & when he turned final, even through the 340 announced a 3 mile final. 
 

the 340 never saw the 150 even though he looked. 
 

both could have seen each other on the map with ADSB. 
 

straight in or not, the 340 had a clear final when he called the 3 mile call. Then the 150 ended up in front of him without seeing him, but clearly hearing him. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by chriscalandro

[OR75]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

ADSB absolutely could have prevented this. The 150 didn’t see the 340 when he turned base & when he turned final, even through the 340 announced a 3 mile final. 
 

the 340 never saw the 150 even though he looked. 
 

both could have seen each other on the map with ADSB. 
 

straight in or not, the 340 had a clear final when he called the 3 mile call. Then the 150 ended up in front of him without seeing him, but clearly hearing him. 

WVI is outside the mode C / ADS-B ring . Also, even with ADS-B , I would not rely on it . 
i am not sure a clear final at 3 miles equals to priority. 

[flyboy0681]

A few weeks ago a Malibu careened into a 172 at North Las Vegas, killing all aboard both aircraft. The Malibu was given an overhead entry for a landing onto runway 30 Left, and the Cessna was doing work in the pattern and was cleared for 30 Right. The Malibu acknowledged three times that they were cleared to land on Three Zero Left, yet the pilot turned out and lined up with 30 Right.

While the whole event was really, really sad, what's even sadder is looking at the wreckage of the Malibu. The entire passenger cabin was left intact, looking very survivable. I guess there were tremendous forces at work.

 

 

[bcg]

Regardless of who was technically in the right here, both pilots screwed up with disastrous results.  The right of way is always given, it simply can't be taken. 

I was doing pattern work at an uncontrolled airport in a Cherokee recently when a King Air called out a 10 mile final.  We were just turning downwind when he made the call and almost through our downwind leg at the 1,000' markers, he made a 5 mile call, he was moving.  He made a 3 mile call for a touch and go when I would have normally turned base so, we told him we were going to extend our base and come in behind him and that afterwards we would transition from 17L to 17R so that he could do his pattern work and I wouldn't have to stress out about him being up my butt.  There was an alarm in the background on all his radio calls so I'm guessing he was working on engine out or engine fire procedures or something of that nature, he did about 8 laps in the time it took me to do 4 on a runway that's 3,000' shorter and then departed the area.  What helped significantly and avoided a similar tragedy here was that we talked to each other, didn't just make calls and assume the other guy would give way.  We told him we were going to extend base so he could get in front of us and then asked him to extend a little to give us time to finish the touch and go and start our transition out of the left pattern for 17L to the right pattern for 17R.  He acknowledged all of that, communicated his intentions as well and everyone was able to negotiate the pattern safely because of it. 

We've got to talk to each other when there are huge speed differences or something like this going on, not just make our calls and assume the other guy will give way because we technically have the right of way.  In this case, it really doesn't matter what the investigation determines about who had the ultimate responsibility here, they're all the same amount of dead.  Hopefully people learn from this and a similar tragedy is avoided in the future.

[DCarlton]

18 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

That’s not quite right. You need to listen to the ATC recording:

22:06 - 340 calls 10 miles East, 4,500, straight in for 20
23:00 - 152 calls turning downwind
24:07 - 340 calls 3 miles straight in [i.e. he's just done 7 miles in 2 minutes]
24:17 - 152 calls turning left base
24:38 - 340 calls 1 mile, looking for traffic on left base
24:48 - 152 "I see you, you're behind me"
25:00 - 152 "I'm gonna go around then because you're coming at me pretty quick, man"
25:29 - unknown calls out the accident on CTAF

The 152 saw the 340 but the 340 never saw the 152. 

If you know someone is right in front of you and you are talking to them and you don't see them, I'm not sure how much ADSB can help.  

[Marauder]

If you know someone is right in front of you and you are talking to them and you don't see them, I'm not sure how much ADSB can help.  

Exactly. Even if you saw them on ADS-B, there is no guarantee that the right corrective action would be taken. I’ll be curious what the NTSB finds in their investigation.

I’ve practiced a lot of approaches near the infamous Modena VOR near Philly. That VOR collects planes like a fresh laid turd collects flies. Multiple airports on different frequencies make it hard to communicate with any of them. The best I can hope for with TIS-B is that I know where to look and hope that I can pick them out against the haze.

I found the ATAS feature of my Lynx 9000 does a really good job of tracking these potential conflicts and when it goes off, I know I have a serious situation to contend with.

What happened at Watsonville was troubling since the 150 pilot realized the 340 was closing quickly but I’m sure it was hard to gauge how quickly.


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[201er]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mooneymite]

19 hours ago, Marauder said:

I found the ATAS feature of my Lynx 9000 does a really good job of tracking these potential conflicts and when it goes off, I know I have a serious situation to contend with.

What happened at Watsonville was troubling since the 150 pilot realized the 340 was closing quickly but I’m sure it was hard to gauge how quickly.

With full blown TCAS installed, it is interesting how often the pilots' instincts are exactly opposite what the boxes are telling the pilots to do.  Simple things like relative altitude and closure rate can be very deciptive.  The first rule of TCAS is "Do what TCAS says".  the pilot is to ignore ATC instructions and his own instncts.

TCAS does not give lateral guidance, merely vertical guidance.  Keeping the problem one dimensional seems to have merits.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Mooneymite