Gear actuator breaker popping

[N177MC]

The gear actuator breaker's popping when selecting both gear up and down.  I disconnected the actuator motor wires and ran them straight to a 24V battery - actuator runs fine both up & down.  I suppose that the motor is getting long in the tooth and just drawing too many Amps?  Also curious that t he actuator is rated 13/23 Amps whilst the circuit breaker is 7-1/2 Amps.

Any ideas before  dropping $10K for an overhauled actuator ?

[EricJ]

Make sure the gear isn't binding on something.   Also make sure the breaker isn't old and tired and in need of replacement.

 

 

[donkaye]

15 minutes ago, N177MC said:

The gear actuator breaker's popping when selecting both gear up and down.  I disconnected the actuator motor wires and ran them straight to a 24V battery - actuator runs fine both up & down.  I suppose that the motor is getting long in the tooth and just drawing too many Amps?  Also curious that t he actuator is rated 13/23 Amps whilst the circuit breaker is 7-1/2 Amps.

Any ideas before  dropping $10K for an overhauled actuator ?

What Mooney model do you have?

[Vance Harral]

25 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Also make sure the breaker isn't old and tired and in need of replacement.

This first, then check the condition of the wiring from the breaker to the actuator.  Circuit breakers and wiring do wear out.

[PT20J]

You could put an ammeter in series with the motor and see what it draws, but if it is drawing too much it would be more likely to be some extra load imposed by the gear system than the motor itself. 

More likely there is a problem with the wiring. Could be the breaker, but that's rare.

Skip

[donkaye]

If it's a Bravo, I potentially know the answer, after having spent several thousand dollars for nothing on a similar problem.

[Brian E.]

16 minutes ago, donkaye said:

If it's a Bravo, I potentially know the answer, after having spent several thousand dollars for nothing on a similar problem.

And what would be the reason in a Bravo?  Inquiring and curious minds want to know!

 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Brian E. said:

And what would be the reason in a Bravo?  Inquiring and curious minds want to know!

 

After checking the wiring and replacing the circuit breaker we called International Avionics in Texas who made the gear and stall warning annunciator and found out it was a known issue.  Long ago they had designed a new board that solved the problem.  We sent the unit in for repair and I haven't has an issue with those popped circuit breakers since that time.

[Fly Boomer]

Ping for OP @N177MC

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

After checking the wiring and replacing the circuit breaker we called International Avionics in Texas who made the gear and stall warning annunciator and found out it was a known issue.  Long ago they had designed a new board that solved the problem.  We sent the unit in for repair and I haven't has an issue with those popped circuit breakers since that time.

Don, which breaker was popping? That sounds like it should affect the gear warning breaker rather than the gear actuator breaker.

[donkaye]

8 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Don, which breaker was popping? That sounds like it should affect the gear warning breaker rather than the gear actuator breaker.

You're right.  It was my gear warning and stall warning that were both popping.  The actuator circuit is different.  My mistake.  Thanks for catching that.

[N177MC]

Okay, I spent 3 hours troubleshooting this and I found the smoking gun : The actuator motor is shorted internally .

Checked the actuator by disconnecting the motor lead wire then connecting to an external 24V battery  - motor runs fine both directions with minimal amps pulled.

Checked the motor lead wires and found both shorted to aircraft ground, hence breaker pops as soon as current is applied .

 

So where can I find a new actuator motor ?  This is a Eagle M20S, Eaton actuator.

 

Thanks !

[KSMooniac]

I'd call Dan at LASAR and ask where they're getting motors serviced these days. Years ago, I believe it was George's Motors or Electric, or similar, but I believe they've closed now. They took care of me in 2008. I doubt you need a new motor or actuator.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[Sue Bon]

Haha! This is a topic that I know well. My LDG motor is a Dukes, and not an Eaton, but Dan at LASAR is the only person on the planet that can officially service a LDG motor and actuator. We sent mine to him and it was back in Switzerland within one week. Total cost for everything (my shop and his) was CHF 3500.- (so not 10K). Michael, at George's, retired in December of 2019. Dan is your man. Give him my heartfelt regards

 

[cbarry]

To my understanding, the factory is offering maintenance and aircraft service.  I wonder what their remedy might be for issues such as this?  Maybe they send it off to Lasar or maybe they might have additional resources.  Either way, it might be worth the contact and to know if the parts and service network is still shrinking or maybe turning a corner.

[EricJ]

9 hours ago, N177MC said:

Okay, I spent 3 hours troubleshooting this and I found the smoking gun : The actuator motor is shorted internally .

Checked the actuator by disconnecting the motor lead wire then connecting to an external 24V battery  - motor runs fine both directions with minimal amps pulled.

Checked the motor lead wires and found both shorted to aircraft ground, hence breaker pops as soon as current is applied .

 

So where can I find a new actuator motor ?  This is a Eagle M20S, Eaton actuator.

 

Thanks !

I'm confused...can't you just fix the lead wires?

[N177MC]

It appears to be shorting internally .

[skykrawler]

The insulation on the windings might be breaking down or something worn loose internally causing the short.

[N177MC]

Update:  Pulled the motor out of the actuator and brought it to a DC motor specialist. 

He quickly confirmed that a winding was shorting on the armature.

Said he can replace winding in 24H, cost $200 . 

[carusoam]

Great follow-up 77MC!

Thanks for sharing the details…

Best regards,

-a-

[N177MC]

Not fixed yet ...   :  So, re-installed the motor, but breaker still breaking ...

Turns out one of the actuator relays is bad.   The current reversal is controlled by a pair of heavy relays in series.  One is obviously stuck. 

Me thinks this may have been collateral damage from the motor shorting to ground,  or not.

 

Stay tuned !

[flyboy0681]

10 hours ago, N177MC said:

Not fixed yet ...   :  So, re-installed the motor, but breaker still breaking ...

Turns out one of the actuator relays is bad.   The current reversal is controlled by a pair of heavy relays in series.  One is obviously stuck. 

Me thinks this may have been collateral damage from the motor shorting to ground,  or not.

 

Stay tuned !

I just replaced the relay pack last month. Lasar orders it from the factory and the factory is quoting a 6 month lead time. I called around the country to MSC' with no luck. My last call  was to a local MSC at KFXE and they had one on the shelf. The shop (Premier) is ten miles away from me and when I was told they had it, I rushed immediately to pick it up. The assembly was $2,400 and installation another $1,400. Yes expensive, but it was an AOG situation because the gear system was totally inoperable.

 

 

[N177MC]

Those two solenoid relays are Kissling / KTE Connectivity  PN: 26.72.03 and can be bought for $250, each.  

No need for Mooney or Dealer for this.

BTW: Installation, strictly speaking ( ie. sans all the troubleshooting)  is about a 4 hour job, including jacking the plane and running gear tests before returning to service.  $1400,  that's just $350/h  ... 

 

[flyboy0681]

9 minutes ago, N177MC said:

Those two solenoid relays are Kissling / KTE Connectivity  PN: 26.72.03 and can be bought for $250, each.  

No need for Mooney or Dealer for this.

BTW: Installation, strictly speaking ( ie. sans all the troubleshooting)  is about a 4 hour job, including jacking the plane and running gear tests before returning to service.  $1400,  that's just $350/h  ... 

 

My partners and I are strictly by the book.

[EricJ]

22 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

My partners and I are strictly by the book.

They're standard parts and the IPC and subsequent kits provide a number of options on replacement relays.   As has been pointed out here periodically, they're basically golf kart relays.   There's not anything special about them.