Wet-Wingologists FXE

[FlyingDude]

6 hours ago, MikeOH said:

that'd you need to be told about a 20% increase over what you were quoted BEFORE he does the additional work???

Many car dealerships (all of the ones I've taken my cars to both in Italy and US)... 

[MikeOH]

7 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Many car dealerships (all of the ones I've taken my cars to both in Italy and US)... 

Swell, so crap customer service is becoming the norm; guess that makes it ok.

[Pinecone]

It seems that might be so in aviation

 

All the car shops I have used called for approval before going over the estimate.  And they also gave a written estimate..

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

It seems hard to understand, but some of these airplanes are 60+ years old, the majority well over 30 years old.

Try getting an experienced contractor to give you an exact estimate on a remodel job on a 60 year old home. They are smart enough not to do that but they will give you a ballpark with a "we'll have to see once we get in there to know for sure".

I agree communication could always be better. But once the job starts and they find things covered by layers of sealant that need to be handled to be airworthy,  which would you rather that they do? Continue and do what's necessary and finish so they can sign off on it and get it back to you? Or put it aside and start on another airplane where the owner would like it back in a timely fashion?

Trust is everything and sometimes you have to go by other people's experiences and use that person that's a well-respected expert at what they do. Once the airplane doesn't leak anymore, a couple thousands of dollars is quickly forgotten. If you use someone that doesn't do it right and you are bringing it back over and over it doesn't take long to burn up $2000. 

[carusoam]

14 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

It seems that might be so in aviation

 

All the car shops I have used called for approval before going over the estimate.  And they also gave a written estimate..

 

 

what car shop, and what car are we discussing?

Old Ferrari, old Lambo, or less aged Chevy…
 

Where did they get the data from?

Millions of cars the corporation has serviced, or a database that has the statistics from an even larger population…

Does the database include all cars, or does it conveniently end with anything as old as my 1995 Firebird?

Sure, some plane service groups are better than others…

 

But, if we are comparing to mass market machines and mass market services… we will probably chase our own tails a bit…

 

Getting known service done on aged industrial machinery often took doing a PPI on the machine first…

Identify the status of the machine first… then do the known work that was required…

 

One thing about Mooneys… there are so many variations that can be found with fuel tanks…

PP guesses only, not a service manager…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Pinecone]

Yes, I can see that there are jobs that may only have an estimate.  But resealing tanks has been done a few times.

And yes, if I get a contractor to work on my 60 year old house, they give me a written estimate and for anything over, I have to approve it.  Yes, sometimes they estimate high to avoid having to stop and call.

For this case, I would think an estimate of the "normal" work, with contingencies for common issues.  Such as, work will cost X, but it is not unusual for us to find A and B, and if so, that will add Y and Z cost, and acceptance of this estimate includes approval for those issues if found.

This is just good business.

[MikeOH]

@carusoam

Why is it necessary to defend poor service when it comes to aircraft?

Why the melodrama over how 'difficult' it is for a mechanic to call the customer when he finds an issue BEFORE he continues?  Is that really such a big ask as to require such a vehement defense for NOT making a simple call?

And, not just one individual around here seems to think $2,000 should just be forgotten in the grand scheme??  I can't fathom how that's okay.  Hell, I had my pool re-plastered for $10,000.  Written quote and all...after he was done he wanted another $500...he did NOT get it. He did work not in the contract and wanted to be paid; had he told me upfront, or even somewhat into the project, I likely would have okayed it.  But, don't come to me after the fact!  I'm sure some around here would never do business with me because of that attitude, but guess what, I don't want to do business with a vendor that won't even bother to call me when the job is going to go 20% over budget!

[carusoam]

2 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@carusoam

Why is it necessary to defend poor service when it comes to aircraft?

Why the melodrama over how 'difficult' it is for a mechanic to call the customer when he finds an issue BEFORE he continues?  Is that really such a big ask as to require such a vehement defense for NOT making a simple call?

And, not just one individual around here seems to think $2,000 should just be forgotten in the grand scheme??  I can't fathom how that's okay.  Hell, I had my pool re-plastered for $10,000.  Written quote and all...after he was done he wanted another $500...he did NOT get it. He did work not in the contract and wanted to be paid; had he told me upfront, or even somewhat into the project, I likely would have okayed it.  But, don't come to me after the fact!  I'm sure some around here would never do business with me because of that attitude, but guess what, I don't want to do business with a vendor that won't even bother to call me when the job is going to go 20% over budget!

Sounds like you have found my weakness…

My writing is still undergoing coarse tuning… 

Clearing things up a bit…

1) I’m all for getting a written quote for work…

2) That is accurate enough there shouldn’t need much of a follow-up…

 

What my point was…

3) like it or not, Aviation doesn’t work like mass produced car shops… 

4) Aviation works this way….often.

5) If you are not aware of this… expect a surprise.

6) I gave examples of how to avoid being surprised…

 

What my point wasn’t…

7) this is somehow OK…

 

Overall…

8) This isn’t a sustainable business practice… as customers are discussing it openly… and they want something better…

 

Keep in mind… I write a lot.

While detailing one area of the problem, I may sound like I condone it…  I don’t!

I try to avoid pointing out where businesses are doing something wrong that is a tradition.

Or blaming the customer who is new to aviation…  or has limited experience where everything has been really good so far…

Some times I just miss what the topic was, or forgot the details…. 

But, since you pointed it out… 

Have I cleared it up?  

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Pinecone]

Actually Mike Busch talks about this whole thing in one of his books.

About many aircraft owners telling the shop to "just fix it."  Without ANY idea of the potential cost.

Strange, that many people with aircraft have or have had their own business and would not do this outside of aviation.

 

 

[Fly Boomer]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:35 AM, Pinecone said:

I am fine with setting a limit, not to exceed.

But, without that, there should be notification and acceptance of any amount over the estimate.  

Is an estimate the same as a fixed-price contract?  If you agree a fixed-price contract, you have to expect that the provider will fit the work into the price.  No matter what.  It's the "no matter what" that can be a problem.  Better communication can fix some of these issues, but I have yet to find an industry/business/provider that communicates as much as I would like.

[40_Year_Dream]

“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.”
― Benjamin Franklin

[Bunti]

The general problem is that even some good car or airplane shops try to charge more than estimated without prior approval of the customer. Lot's of customers accept that without asking and pay. This teaches the shops that this kind of behavior may be ok. But it is not!!!!!

There is work which is really difficult to estimate. Troubleshooting failures may take long but I believe that resealing a fuel tank for a company who is doing nothing else every day is not difficult to estimate and easy to set up a fixed price before the work starts.  Sure additional work may be needed, but this is easy for the shop: Call the customer and get approval. The final bill should not be a dime over the estimate plus pre approved additional work.

My experience in aviation is that good customer oriented shops give you an estimate and do not ask for more at the end. Others try to find reasons why it should cost more. As a customer we should say no! 

I had an A+P who most of the time was below his estimates because it took less time to fix things. Another company was different: They even tried to charge for work they never did: They charged extra for doing certain ADs which were not applicable for my airplane. I told the owner of the shop about that and he deducted it from the bill immediately. 

Another problem is if a large shop lets the non Mooney expert work on your plane, he may need way more time than the expert and at the end they want more money. 

 

[FlyingDude]

18 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Swell, so crap customer service is becoming the norm; guess that makes it ok.

Oh crap. It's my bad English, I misunderstood you. I meant that most (if not all) dealerships and mechanics have given me estimates and they spontaneously contacted me in case anything went out of the initial diagnosis. Example: one independent mechanic told me the air flow sensor needed replacement when he first took a glance at the car, but then discovered that the other airflow sensor needed replacement too, so he sent me a concise text "U need 2nd AF sens. $400. Ok?" To which I said "cool". So the treatment I've received by default in the autoworld was on the good side.

[MikeOH]

@Bunti

Thank you for doing a much more diplomatic job than I at covering this issue!

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.”
― Benjamin Franklin

Uh, that’s not the topic here.

[FlyingDude]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Actually Mike Busch talks about this whole thing in one of his books.

About many aircraft owners telling the shop to "just fix it."  Without ANY idea of the potential cost.

Strange, that many people with aircraft have or have had their own business and would not do this outside of aviation.

 

 

Because of people's desire to defer responsibility and obtain safety when threat is perceived...  If your car breaks down on the highway, you think you can simply coast to the shoulder in most cases, and call tow service...  If your plane breaks down, you might get hurt.  Due to this perceived threat, many people would like to just hand it off to the expert and wash their hands, and sleep well at night by thinking that they bought safety.  

[Pinecone]

Which is why Mike started Savvy to help people get what is needed done, without paying for things that don't need to be done.

[affricate]

On 7/7/2022 at 12:37 PM, Steve Dawson said:

I just had my tanks resealed by Edison a couple months ago and he replaced the drains for the same money. It seems like a lot of money but after he finished with it I was glad he did it and feel safer that I won't have a leaky valve problem in the future. I'm not sure what the parts cost is but it's a fair amount of labour too.

You'll have to have your tanks filled before you leave so Edison can do a leak check. Banyon is the only fuel server on the field and they were $9.85/gal when I had mine finished. Phone Banyon up before your tanks are ready and ask them for a discount. I was able to get $1/gal discount ($90.00) which is enough for a round of drinks with anyone but pilots. 

Banyon was 8.00/gal when I had my done a year and a half ago.

[Steve Dawson]

1 hour ago, affricate said:

Banyon was 8.00/gal when I had my done a year and a half ago.

With the way gas has been priced over the last few months that might as well been a decade ago. My point was to ask Banyon for a discount 

[Jim Peace]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:09 PM, Steve Dawson said:

With the way gas has been priced over the last few months that might as well been a decade ago. My point was to ask Banyon for a discount 

I got a discount and the tank shop seems to have done a great job so far. Will finally see my plane again tomorrow. I have been in Asia a while. 

[Schllc]

I’m in a similar business so I see both sides. 
I dont know the shop so I can’t speak to the work or integrity, but what I can say is that for jobs like this, communication is critical and necessary, and there is no excuse for bad communication. 
The moment I get bad news, the customer gets it, and I don’t sugarcoat it or dance around it. 
Many people prefer to go to the guy that is overly optimistic or who just doesn’t share the whole spectrum. 
I don’t think wanting to know it was happening is unreasonable. 
That being said, I also didn’t read the proposal,  nor was I present for the closing of the deal, and it is very human to hear what you want to hear. 
If the work is good quality, the turn around was within the promised range, and the charges were valid, I’d move on.  Your tanks will probably last long than any of us here!
 

[amillet]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:45 PM, Bolter said:

My approach, when I have trust in the shop, is give him a cost overrun budget.  For example, for annual, I tell him just fix things right, and no need to call me unless he is  expecting to go 2000 over the estimate.  We have a good history, and this does not get abused.  And it is rare I ever say "no" on a repair for a "forever" plane.  

-dan

Agree.. I know who your shop is