Protesting Personal Property Tax Increase

[MikeOH]

UGH!  Received my plane's personal property tax assessment from the Los Angeles Assessors office....up 28%!!!!

Anyone had any luck with the protest process?

[Skates97]

No experience with LA County. When we bought our house seven years ago OC came back with a crazy number. We protested it, had to go to a hearing with the assessors, and ended up more than we wanted but less than their original number. I know houses aren't the same as personal property but I think it's worth pursuing. 

[amillet]

FL also has hurricanes, alligators, heat and humidity, if you like those kinds of things   We did find our Mooney in FL 17 years ago. Only place further from home would have been Key West 

[MikeOH]

11 hours ago, Skates97 said:

No experience with LA County. When we bought our house seven years ago OC came back with a crazy number. We protested it, had to go to a hearing with the assessors, and ended up more than we wanted but less than their original number. I know houses aren't the same as personal property but I think it's worth pursuing. 

What did you present as evidence at the hearing?

I haven’t made any upgrades in the last year and my already over TBO engine now has more hours! If they just claim plane prices are up In general, I can’t refute that, I’m afraid. Not sure what to use to prove my innocence!

[A64Pilot]

Well I can tell you that here in Florida my Property taxes are far more than they were in Alabama. Fl does have property tax.

If your looking to buy a house and you look at the tax and it’s xxxx per year, you think that’s not bad. But when you buy it can take a HUGE jump. It may be just my County, but apparently as long as you own the house tax is limited as to how much they can increase it each year, but when it sells, they can catch it up so to speak, so mine went up a couple of grand per year, this year, and Zillow says my house is worth $200,000 more than when I bought it, so thank God for that limit on how hard they can hit me each year.

House may not be “personal” but Fl tax on one isn’t cheap, not compared to say Alabama.

However there is a bill up right now I believe that would eliminate the Fl 6% aircraft sales tax

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/478591-state-local-governments-stand-to-lose-millions-under-pitch-to-axe-aviation-tax/

 

I’d swap Hurricanes for Fires, mud slides and Earthquakes anyway, Hurricanes don’t just happen, often you get a Weeks notice, but you always get more than a day.

If you ride one out, it was by choice.

Edited June 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

7 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

What did you present as evidence at the hearing?

I haven’t made any upgrades in the last year and my already over TBO engine now has more hours! If they just claim plane prices are up In general, I can’t refute that, I’m afraid. Not sure what to use to prove my innocence!

I would certainly plead the over TBO engine under the argument that an engine cost $50,000, TBO is 2,000 hours, Average aircraft value assumes a mid time engine, your being at TBO is worth $25,000 less than average aircraft.

I don't know what actual engine cost is, but I’d use new factory motor plus mechanic costs plus new hoses etc and have it all listed, preferably in the form of an estimate from an A&P. Could be well in excess of $50K? Oh, don’t forget the prop too and accessories, that’s where an itemized estimate from a Licensed A&P may help.

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

Speaking of reading

Did you read the part where I said “House may not be personal”?

Point is since you need to have it spelled out is that Property tax makes up for not having personal property tax, your tax liability is likely similar. Fl is not a cheap place to live compared to other parts of the South. My Alabama tax bill all of it, was well less than half of Florida, but the same house is worth far less in Alabama too. 

If you live on the coast especially you take your chances Hurricane wise. I know a little about Hurricanes besides living in the South most of my life, we lived on a boat for four years or so, you become attuned to Hurricane season when your house floats.  Surely you knew before you bought that a Hurricane was a possibility? I chose to buy in Central Fl largely due to the greatly reduced Hurricane damage probability.

I’m sorry you lost property to one, I hope you lost no loved ones.

Most of the more desirable places to live come with downsides, but I’ll take the ones that come with advance notice myself, over the ones that don’t.

Edited June 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Tommooney]

Assessors probably go to seminars together to think this stuff up.

I protested here in Ventura Co CA many years ago. The day before the hearing, the assessor called and adjusted it down a little so we didn't need to go to hearing in front of his bosses. Its not worth the time for me to do it every year.

On the phone he said the annual assessment includes sales tax because if I bought it today, I would pay sales tax.....I think total is about $2500/ year. T-Hanger is another $500ish.

Good luck.

Tom

[DCarlton]

16 hours ago, MikeOH said:

UGH!  Received my plane's personal property tax assessment from the Los Angeles Assessors office....up 28%!!!!

Anyone had any luck with the protest process?

I'm in San Diego County.  My 67Fs property taxes increased 56% this year.  I called and complained.  There is an appeals process.  I was told they use the aircraft blue book for valuation.  Since aircraft prices have gone up so much this year, I didn't take it any further; didn't figure I had a case (other than complaining that they shouldn't be allowed to increase taxes 56% in one year and I'm concerned that they are chasing the market).  If prices go down in the future, I do plan to provide substantial evidence of the updated values when I file my tax documents.  I can't see letting them raise taxes and then not lowering them if aircraft prices fall.  I have no intention of buying a newer more expensive aircraft now.  CA is taxing us to death.  To add insult to injury, I received a bill for four years of back taxes on a boat I keep in AZ (but it's registered in CA).  They told me it was an "escape".  

Edited June 12, 2022 by DCarlton

[A64Pilot]

I’ve only twice protested tax, first was real property on a boat I kept at the Naval Warfare Center in Panama City Fl, my Georgia County was taxing me on it. I could have plainly won but probably would have had to get a Lawyer involved, which I guessed would have wiped out the money saved on taxes.

Second time right after the housing collapse they raised my Property Tax by nearly 100% by increasing accessed value. Of course everyone house values doubled after 08 right?

Spent most of a day sitting in a waiting room watching a 5 min video on a loop about how we all have to pay our fair share, to then finally be seen, where I was asked about ten questions that were put on a form, one I could easily have done and mailed in. to be told they would be in contact with me, the message was clear, this was their field, they made the rules which I had to comply with and I thought I could beat them? I could tell there would be many days of lost work that I would sit in a waiting room to go through the process. As I knew I would be Retiring in a few years I just quit.

So while I feel I could have beaten both cases, the fight just wasn’t worth it, so they won in the end.

I wish you luck, someone needs to fight them now and again, but I gave in. Probably should have spent the money to win a pyrrhic victory but I didn’t.

I think they count on that actually.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Boats are personal property, however.  

I believe he said, "real property on a boat"; that could be his share of property taxes on the slip or dock where he kept his boat.  Just sayin'

[A64Pilot]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

I believe he said, "real property on a boat"; that could be his share of property taxes on the slip or dock where he kept his boat.  Just sayin'

No, I just misspoke, scrambled the words. I know the difference but just misspoke.

[Skates97]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

What did you present as evidence at the hearing?

I haven’t made any upgrades in the last year and my already over TBO engine now has more hours! If they just claim plane prices are up In general, I can’t refute that, I’m afraid. Not sure what to use to prove my innocence!

It was all based on values of homes in our immediate area. The problem was that they just drew a big circle around the address and that pulled in home values much higher than the ones in our neighborhood. Even if they are going off current sales prices, I would think the same approach would apply. Get valuations of planes with similar avionics and as others have mentioned the the TBO engine and how much it reduces the value of a plane. Put together a case showing that while some 1970 M20F's are selling for xxxx, yours is worth less than those because xxxx. 

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

What did you present as evidence at the hearing?

I haven’t made any upgrades in the last year and my already over TBO engine now has more hours! If they just claim plane prices are up In general, I can’t refute that, I’m afraid. Not sure what to use to prove my innocence!

I was recently confronted with the same thing on my house/hangar value. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) they are correct it did go up that much. in fact if I was offered what they have it assessed at, I wouldn't sell it.

My only chance was to compare how much mine had gone up vs. how much other houses in the neighborhood had gone up. It looks like they missed a few so i used that. They made an offer before the hearing which I accepted. 

[A64Pilot]

I think the professional appraiser is the way to go.

Sort of a different but similar thing, I had put a whole bunch of money in my boat so I was underinsured. As per the Insurence companies request to have the valuation raised I needed a Survey (Appraised basically, but also a pre-buy)  As I was paying he pushed the value as high as he could defend, which was much higher than actual value of course. They accepted his survey and I raised insurence to that amount and it cost much less than I thought it would.

In other words I think as your the customer it’s likely, if that’s what you want an appraiser could give you a very low ball appraisal, based I still think on over TBO engine and prop etc.

His or her opinion ought to carry weight as they are a professional appraiser I would think. Their valuation is not based on your aircraft, but average, his would be specifically yours.

I’d expect though some kind of agreed upon middle ground, but as I’m sure most don’t fight it, you may get them to accept the appraisers value.

Let us know how it goes, cause I’m curious.

Edited June 13, 2022 by A64Pilot

[thinwing]

On 6/11/2022 at 5:57 PM, MikeOH said:

UGH!  Received my plane's personal property tax assessment from the Los Angeles Assessors office....up 28%!!!!

Anyone had any luck with the protest process?

its a hassle..the only fairly sure way is to show up with an aircraft appraisal from a certified appraiser

[A64Pilot]

I though Ozark was UCLA?

”upper corner of lower Alabama”

[MikeOH]

OK, so I folded like a cheap tent.

Upon speaking with an assessor from Los Angeles county I find out that they are blaming the increase on a state level mandate for the hike!  Not sure I believe that, but I still needed to protest with the county.  I tried to reason with her to discuss a compromise (yeah, stupid idea) vs. going the full protest route.  Not a chance says she; not until you've filed a formal protest.  So, I go to the county website as she directed, only to find out there is a $45 filing fee with a hearing date out in Oct/Nov well past the August tax due date.  Pay up now, and if you prevail we'll give some of your money back much later. While the value hike was 28%, the dollar difference between last year's tax and what a negotiated 'middle-ground' might be, just didn't amount to much. Somehow, I think that was their strategy.  Oh, well, first world rich airplane owner problem, I suppose.

[flyboy0681]

11 hours ago, MikeOH said:

OK, so I folded like a cheap tent.

Upon speaking with an assessor from Los Angeles county I find out that they are blaming the increase on a state level mandate for the hike!  Not sure I believe that, but I still needed to protest with the county.  I tried to reason with her to discuss a compromise (yeah, stupid idea) vs. going the full protest route.  Not a chance says she; not until you've filed a formal protest.  So, I go to the county website as she directed, only to find out there is a $45 filing fee with a hearing date out in Oct/Nov well past the August tax due date.  Pay up now, and if you prevail we'll give some of your money back much later. While the value hike was 28%, the dollar difference between last year's tax and what a negotiated 'middle-ground' might be, just didn't amount to much. Somehow, I think that was their strategy.  Oh, well, first world rich airplane owner problem, I suppose.

Pretty ballsy when you consider the state found itself with a $97 billion surplus that they are looking to give back to taxpayers in the form of a rebate.

[MikeOH]

27 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Pretty ballsy when you consider the state found itself with a $97 billion surplus that they are looking to give back to taxpayers in the form of a rebate.

Hey, no kidding. But here in Kalifornia it doesn’t surprise me; never any accountability. We remain the land of the fruits and nuts

[Hank]

55 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Hey, no kidding. But here in Kalifornia it doesn’t surprise me; never any accountability. We remain the land of the fruits and nuts

Don't leave out the flakes! Granola isn't complete without all three!

[Unit74]

On 7/1/2022 at 11:39 AM, flyboy0681 said:

Pretty ballsy when you consider the state found itself with a $97 billion surplus that they are looking to give back to taxpayers in the form of a rebate.

It’s more like when you hit a big hand on the craps table and toss the dealer a $10 chip tip.  If you think CA is gonna let 97b slip through their hands, I’ve got beachfront property in Arizona I’d like to sell you. 

[Skates97]

On 7/1/2022 at 8:39 AM, flyboy0681 said:

Pretty ballsy when you consider the state found itself with a $97 billion surplus that they are looking to give back to SOME taxpayers in the form of a rebate.

You missed a key part of the equation. They only give the surplus back to those making less than $xxxk a year. Those above that threshold don't get a penny, even though it's those above the threshold paying the higher percentage in taxes. 

I just got mine from Orange County and it is a 23% increase in the value of the plane.