"Minor" emergency.

[Shadrach]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:41 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Usually used overseas (Europe for sure).  It may be icao standard, but I suspect atc here would be confused by it.  

I don’t think they would, it’s pretty mainstream now. I don’t remember when I learned about it but it’s been a long time. I don’t believe it was discussed in my primary training back in 97.

Straight from the AIM on the FAA website.

6-3-1. Distress and Urgency Communications

C.The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Shadrach

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I don’t think they would, it’s pretty mainstream now. I don’t remember when I learned about it but it’s been a long time. I don’t believe it was discussed in my primary training back in 97.

Straight from the AIM on the FAA website.

6-3-1. Distress and Urgency Communications

C.The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.

 

You guys are probably right, I’ve just never heard it taught or used.  That doesn’t mean anything though.  Clearly it’s in the aim and the pilot/controller glossary, so they should know.

My personal opinion is this though… if you have a problem in an airplane, you need to use good crm.  This means everything from good checklist discipline, autopilot use (single pilot crm), crew coordination (if available), and ATC communication/coordination.  I think you really want to avoid any gray area or guessing from lengthy or complex coordination.  Either declare an emergency or don’t.  Example from @AH64D  above said he declared “PanPan” in a multi engine helo because it could fly fine on one but he wanted to skip the recovery routing… in my opinion, I say emergency and tell them I’m on one engine and going directly to the field.  No guessing.  What is the downside of saying emergency? That’s how I think about it at least.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

You guys are probably right, I’ve just never heard it taught or used.  That doesn’t mean anything though.  Clearly it’s in the aim and the pilot/controller glossary, so they should know.

My personal opinion is this though… if you have a problem in an airplane, you need to use good crm.  This means everything from good checklist discipline, autopilot use (single pilot crm), crew coordination (if available), and ATC communication/coordination.  I think you really want to avoid any gray area or guessing from lengthy or complex coordination.  Either declare an emergency or don’t.  Example from @AH64D  above said he declared “PanPan” in a multi engine helo because it could fly fine on one but he wanted to skip the recovery routing… in my opinion, I say emergency and tell them I’m on one engine and going directly to the field.  No guessing.  What is the downside of saying emergency? That’s how I think about it at least.

I agree generally with your sentiment. I think of Pan Pan as being what you use in an urgent situation that is not an emergency. As an example, about 20 years ago, I had a  complete electrical failure in some very busy airspace though not controlled. I was talking to NY center at the time. It was dusk, my transmissions went from “wooly” to zilch as the battery completely died. However, I did not consider it an emergency. I had vac instruments, flashlight and Nav. I diverted to Queen City/Allentown PA NORDO using a flashlight and Garmin 195. I’d have been fine even if the the garmin died. It was, nevertheless, suboptimal. I did not know what pan pan was at the time or I would have used it when notifying ATC of my situation.

[jaylw314]

7 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

What is the downside of saying emergency? That’s how I think about it at least.

I think one conceptual benefit of having pan-pan is to get people thinking of declaring an emergency when they might have convinced themselves otherwise, e.g.

"I really don't think this is an emergency so I'm not going to declare it"

vs.

"I really don't think this is an emergency, but I should call pan-pan because it won't inconvenience anyone.  Yeah, I suppose if it worsens, I should declare then"

And I've also heard of controllers declaring emergencies for pilots, so it also might prime them to do so if they saw a reason.

In an ideal world, all pilots would declare when there was any possible reason to, but that neglects the fact that we're human.  Pan-pan can help bridge that gap

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I think one conceptual benefit of having pan-pan is to get people thinking of declaring an emergency when they might have convinced themselves otherwise, e.g.

"I really don't think this is an emergency so I'm not going to declare it"

vs.

"I really don't think this is an emergency, but I should call pan-pan because it won't inconvenience anyone.  Yeah, I suppose if it worsens, I should declare then"

And I've also heard of controllers declaring emergencies for pilots, so it also might prime them to do so if they saw a reason.

In an ideal world, all pilots would declare when there was any possible reason to, but that neglects the fact that we're human.  Pan-pan can help bridge that gap

You got it in one, PAN PAN is a heads up call, it ain’t an emergency, but I’m concerned so keep an eye out for me OK.

Of course during an ATC handover the next agency will be briefed on your situation.

Edited April 15, 2022 by A64Pilot

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I think one conceptual benefit of having pan-pan is to get people thinking of declaring an emergency when they might have convinced themselves otherwise, e.g.

"I really don't think this is an emergency so I'm not going to declare it"

vs.

"I really don't think this is an emergency, but I should call pan-pan because it won't inconvenience anyone.  Yeah, I suppose if it worsens, I should declare then"

And I've also heard of controllers declaring emergencies for pilots, so it also might prime them to do so if they saw a reason.

In an ideal world, all pilots would declare when there was any possible reason to, but that neglects the fact that we're human.  Pan-pan can help bridge that gap

Good point that Pan Pan might serve as an en guard psychologically there is a potential emergency brewing where as there is a psychological hurdle to call some things what they are - emergency.

I have wondered why pilots sometimes don't call something an emergency when it is.  And in part I think it is this - we want pilots who can stay enough cool to handle the emergency rather than run around like a chicken with their head cut off panicked.  But that trained calm which may allow us to handle the emergency may also be too much if we don't want to call it an emergency.  So it is pulling in opposite directions to want to call it an emergency but not panic ourselves.

I remember the one time I did declare an emergency and it was clear as day I needed to declare an emergency since my engine had gone quiet.  It was a force of will to remain enough calm to do the job of flying the airplane, navigate, keep talking to ATC on the developing situation and so forth.  Which thankfully I was able to do, but I was noticing the whole time my voice was shaky as the tell that I wasn't truly ok with the situation, but nonetheless I was doing everything I needed to do and staying on top of it.

So maybe Pan Pan is there in part for psychology?

Edited April 15, 2022 by aviatoreb

[A64Pilot]

I think often people are hesitant to declare an emergency for two reasons.

1. They don’t want to admit to themselves that something really bad may happen, sort of a denial.

2. They don’t want to be embarrassed when their Emergency turns out to be they didn’t understand what was happening or it was just a bad sensor, burned out light bulb etc.

By the way, you guys remember where “Mayday” comes from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday

Where PAN is thought of as “Pay Attention Now” or “Possible Assistance Needed” but it’s root is also French, Panne means I think mechanical breakdown.

Edited April 15, 2022 by A64Pilot

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I think often people are hesitant to declare an emergency for two reasons.

1. They don’t want to admit to themselves that something really bad may happen, sort of a denial.

2. They don’t want to be embarrassed when their Emergency turns out to be they didn’t understand what was happening or it was just a bad sensor, burned out light bulb etc.

By the way, you guys remember where “Mayday” comes from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday

Where PAN is thought of as “Pay Attention Now” or “Possible Assistance Needed” but it’s root is also French, Panne means I think mechanical breakdown.

I agree about the denial aspects in both 1 and 2.

Interesting history of MayDay.  m' aidez.

[flyboy0681]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:30 PM, aviatoreb said:

Huh - I never heard of that.  That's really a thing?

But why a code like that - I would be inclined to just talk to ATC in plain English and tell them I have a gear issue that I am problem solving.  Then once sufficiently solved as I have it I would want to say that I am proceeding to KPTD now.

I was taught in the 80's to use PAN-PAN-PAN to clear the airwaves when the frequency is crowded and you need to get the controllers attention in an emergency. Anybody else told that?

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

my engine had gone quiet.

Was that in the Rocket?

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Was that in the Rocket?

Yes.  That fun day is on here somewhere - search the word saki - or try Holy Yikes.  April 2018.  No metal bent.  Knock on wood.

[carusoam]

 

[kortopates]

I was taught in the 80's to use PAN-PAN-PAN to clear the airwaves when the frequency is crowded and you need to get the controllers attention in an emergency. Anybody else told that?

that’s how the AIM describes it, referred to several posts back up.
amazing how long this thread has gotten.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

Ok - verdict is in.

It was a microswitch gone bad.

Apparently the gear motors are set up with a pair of microswitches on to tell the motor to stop when it is opening and one to tell it when to stop when closing.  One of the switches had gone back - actually intermittent which makes the system go inop.

On jacks the switch proved itermittent and you could put your hand on it and observe the problem by indicting the intermittent behavior,

Overnight new part - install and now it works consistently on jacks.  Airplane back in hangar - but no test fly today - winds were gusting to 55kts!  Wicked windy.

So I will call this the 1AMU repair (before I get the bill - guessing) - $5 part priced at $50 because it is "aviation quality" then $100 over night shipping a tiny tiny part and about 1K for labor.  Just a guess.

 

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

Other than the dollars, that was pretty painless!! 

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Other than the dollars, that was pretty painless!! 

Yah - I agree!  I mean nothing costs less than 1 AMU (and again Im just making that cost up - no bill yet) and indeed pretty painless and quick fix.

E

[aviatoreb]

OK - verdict is in 

$915.  Over all less than I guessed.  Most of all - no bent metal, no one hurt, and I came away knowing more about my airplane. AND I supported my local economy - the local mechanics did a great job.  They mostly do airline work but its great in this rural area that they are here and ready for such things!

E

[jaylw314]

22 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

I was taught in the 80's to use PAN-PAN-PAN to clear the airwaves when the frequency is crowded and you need to get the controllers attention in an emergency. Anybody else told that?

Fun idea, with the caveat that if you're having an emergency you probably should be saying "mayday,mayday,mayday," since that will clear the airwaves even faster!  

[carusoam]

Great follow-up Erik!

Thanks for sharing the details.

Best regards,

-a-