"Minor" emergency.

[EricJ]

34 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

No doubt.  How about a very small Bluetooth camera secured (3m velcro?) inside a wheel well or maybe even back of the nose wheel truss to see the mains?  That would be awesome!

My IFD540 has an analog video input that uses a very common video standard.   Cameras compatible with that standard are inexpensive, small, and don't use much power.   I've thought of making a little divot in a belly panel that would give a view of all three gear, but I suspect getting the installation approved would be cumbersome.    If somebody got one approved under NORSEE it'd probably be a good product.

But a wireless cam that attaches/removes without tools could link to a tablet or something, it'd just be a bit of a hassle to keep it charged, etc.   WiFi would be better for video.   Some BT devices will transport video, too, but the range is less.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Hi - no I did not.  I guess the phrase emergency to ATC must mean that I am asserting that I require special handling of some kind?  Meaning get me to the runway now.  Or put me in front of other traffic because I have an emergency.  If I had been talking to ATC then I would have notified them I have an issue but that it is not currently an emergency.  But that said, you have me thinking - maybe I should have talked to ATC in this case - where I am located the kind of flying I am describing, local approaches all rural airports, we aren't generally talking to ATC and furthermore there are often not a single other aircraft in the air for 50 miles around.  Might have been a good idea now that I think of it if I had tuned in to ATC at this time and notified of my "minor problem".

Glad it worked out smoothly!  AFAIK, "emergency" is any situation where the pilot is in distress, I don't think it automatically requires a need for special handling.  If you had, say been in actual IMC or had some other additional workload, and were getting overloaded trying to troubleshoot, that would have been fair game for declaring.  On the other hand, you made it sound like, as Ford Prefect would say, "everything is cool and froody," but I don't think anybody would have faulted you for declaring if you felt otherwise 

[jaylw314]

1 minute ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah I agree, if the floor indicator is good, it’s down, but it’s pretty comforting to actually see the gear down like the mirrors show on high wing ac.

LOL, but if my gear have fallen off, I'm not sure I'd actually want to see that! 

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, Hank said:

That's what the coxswain is for!

But no, I don't want to carry a coxswain or similar on all of my flights . . . . .

I row in a single and in a double scull lately - both no cox.  You steer the old fashioned way - you turn around and look and try not to hit stuff.

[PT20J]

On a Mooney, the floor indicator is the final authority for gear position because it’s mechanical and part of the gear retraction mechanism. The lights are controlled by switches which can fail or be misadjusted.

[PT20J]

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY is used to indicate a state of distress.

PAN, PAN, PAN is used to indicate a state of urgency. 

Both are in the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary and are also described in the Controller’s manual 7110.65. So, the controller will know what either means. They are really just attention getters. You’re expected to describe the nature of your issue and any assistance you require after the initial announcement. Normally, you would follow a Mayday call by declaring an emergency, but you might elect not to do so after a Pan.

We had a partial power loss on the left engine on takeoff in the DC-3. I was right seat pilot flying. In the left seat was a retired airline captain. He took control and I ran checklists and did the troubleshooting (he has way more DC-3 time than I do, and I have better systems knowledge. It was good CRM). On downwind he asked me to declare an emergency. I asked if he wanted them to roll the equipment and he said “Hell yes. That’s what it’s there for!”  Point is that many of us may be hesitant to declare, but professional pilots are trained to use all the resources available. (We landed uneventfully. Cracked cylinder head).

Skip

[aviatoreb]

58 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Glad it worked out smoothly!  AFAIK, "emergency" is any situation where the pilot is in distress, I don't think it automatically requires a need for special handling.  If you had, say been in actual IMC or had some other additional workload, and were getting overloaded trying to troubleshoot, that would have been fair game for declaring.  On the other hand, you made it sound like, as Ford Prefect would say, "everything is cool and froody," but I don't think anybody would have faulted you for declaring if you felt otherwise 

I think I like your interpretation.

And in any case, as I understand it, pilot in command is final authority in the moment as to if he/she is in distress and should declare emergency if that is what he/she feels should be done and they need it.  I think yes indeed I would not be surprised if someone had declared an emergency if the same happened in IMC, but how accessible the nice manual gear extension method is, I think I likely would not have in that case.

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, PT20J said:

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY is used to indicate a state of distress.

PAN, PAN, PAN is used to indicate a state of urgency. 

Both are in the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary and are also described in the Controller’s manual 7110.65. So, the controller will know what either means. They are really just attention getters. You’re expected to describe the nature of your issue and any assistance you require after the initial announcement. Normally, you would follow a Mayday call by declaring an emergency, but you might elect not to do so after a Pan.

We had a partial power loss on the left engine on takeoff in the DC-3. I was right seat pilot flying. In the left seat was a retired airline captain. He took control and I ran checklists and did the troubleshooting (he has way more DC-3 time than I do, and I have better systems knowledge. It was good CRM). On downwind he asked me to declare an emergency. I asked if he wanted them to roll the equipment and he said “Hell yes. That’s what it’s there for!”  Point is that many of us may be hesitant to declare, but professional pilots are trained to use all the resources available. (We landed uneventfully. Cracked cylinder head).

Skip

How have I gotten this far and I only just now learn about Pan Pan Pan?!!  Just goes to show - you learn something new every day!

 

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Pan Pan….

Used frequently with boats and coast guard broadcasts…

Have not heard being used in aviation lately…?

Best regards,

-a-

Look at the bottom of that article I linked to for a partial list of aircraft declaring Pan Pan, it’s pretty common and it’s use states you have an urgent situation, for instance when you do your fuel check you determine due to unforcasted winds that you will not have your IFR reserves upon reaching destination, a Pan Pan would be correct, and ATC knows it’s urgent, not just a nervous private pilot. They should if possible clear you direct and give you priority handling.

Point is in a deteriorating condition, don’t wait until it’s an Emergency go ahead and declare the Pan Pan. For instance when I lost an engine in the AH-64 in Savannah I declared a Pan Pan, because she was perfectly capable of single engine flight, but it was prudent to skip the VFR arrival route and proceed direct to the runway.

On edit, let’s say we were flying along and noticed the oil pressure was dropping, might just be a gauge because she’s running fine, but a Pan Pan would be prudent, ATC would advise you of the closest field and be watching to see what happens and if the lose you from Radar would be far more likely to launch rescue, call the Sheriff whatever is in the plan they have

Edited April 13, 2022 by A64Pilot

[kortopates]

Usually used overseas (Europe for sure).  It may be icao standard, but I suspect atc here would be confused by it.  

they better not be!
PAN-PAN see AIM 6-3-1

But really both Mayday and PAN-PAN are only intended on a very busy frequency to get all the pilots and controller to shut up so you can communicate your Urgency (Mayday) or Distress (PAN-PAN).

If it isn’t busy, you shouldn’t need it on an ATC frequency; but I think it’s useful on a silent FSS radio that is just be monitored till someone has a request and you need to jump in front of the line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MooneyMitch]

So glad you didn’t panick and jump out of your airplane! 

Looking forward to learning about the electrical culprit.

[A64Pilot]

20 minutes ago, kortopates said:

they better not be!
PAN-PAN see AIM 6-3-1

But really both Mayday and PAN-PAN are only intended on a very busy frequency to get all the pilots and controller to shut up so you can communicate your Urgency (Mayday) or Distress (PAN-PAN).

If it isn’t busy, you shouldn’t need it on an ATC frequency; but I think it’s useful on a silent FSS radio that is just be monitored till someone has a request and you need to jump in front of the line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I disagree, I see it as I’m being watched and if I disappear someone will be looking for me, a rough running engine for instance can turn into a silent one, if you’ve established contact, gotten a squawk etc. then if it gets bad your not trying to land while establishing comms, declaring an emergency, I’m so and so located 10 miles east of the VOR yadda, yadda. All you have to do is say, engine failure, I’m trying for a field by the road and the rest is already done.

[PT20J]

Whether you say Emergency,  Mayday, Pan or just yell HELP! is less important than making sure ATC understands your situation and what assistance you require. The most common emergency is low fuel state. There have been airline accidents (e.g., Avianca Flight 52) where the crew informed ATC that they were low on fuel, but did not make it clear that they were actually running on fumes. "Minimum fuel" is just an advisory that you won't be able to accept any delays once you reach your destination. It is just a FYI for controllers and they are not obligated to provide any priority handling. If you really need to get there ASAP and land with no delays the proper thing to get what you need is to declare a fuel emergency.

Skip

[kortopates]

I disagree, I see it as I’m being watched and if I disappear someone will be looking for me, a rough running engine for instance can turn into a silent one, if you’ve established contact, gotten a squawk etc. then if it gets bad your not trying to land while establishing comms, declaring an emergency, I’m so and so located 10 miles east of the VOR yadda, yadda. All you have to do is say, engine failure, I’m trying for a field by the road and the rest is already done.

Not sure which part your disagreeing with, but if you’ve established comms with ATC IFR or VFR with code flight following. I would still see the Mayday or PAN-PAN useful if when you suddenly want to communicate and the frequency is busy, then interrupt. But if not, just directly communicate your issue with call sign e.g. “Mooney 123 engine failure, i’m trying for a field….”
The controller knows that’s an emergency but i am sure they’ll confirm with their follow up questions of souls on board etc as time permits.
Using Mayday doesn’t add anything over the nature of your distress of engine failure.


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[GeeBee]

Very common on Oceanic to use Pan during an engine failure. On the NATS, you have to displace and parallel off the track to perform drift down. You declare Pan-Pan on common, 123.45 to let everyone on your track and the adjacent tracks know what you are doing because in some cases, you only have 30 miles between tracks.  I've used Pan several times for medical emergencies.

 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

So glad you didn’t panick and jump out of your airplane! 

Looking forward to learning about the electrical culprit.

I forgot to mention that my parachute was also inop.

[PT20J]

40 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Not sure which part your disagreeing with, but if you’ve established comms with ATC IFR or VFR with code flight following. I would still see the Mayday or PAN-PAN useful if when you suddenly want to communicate and the frequency is busy, then interrupt. But if not, just directly communicate your issue with call sign e.g. “Mooney 123 engine failure, i’m trying for a field….”
The controller knows that’s an emergency but i am sure they’ll confirm with their follow up questions of souls on board etc as time permits.
Using Mayday doesn’t add anything over the nature of your distress of engine failure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree. If you are talking to ATC and make your situation clear, controllers will treat it as an emergency even if you don’t use the word. Here’s the reference from 7110.65

 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

How have I gotten this far and I only just now learn about Pan Pan Pan?!!  Just goes to show - you learn something new every day!

At the risk of being pedantic, it's technically "Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan." 

In all seriousness, though, I am terribly glad that we're talking to you and able to yuck it up like this.  Too many accident discussions lately, so it's nice to be able to give someone crap instead.

Edited April 13, 2022 by jaylw314

[GeneralT001]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY is used to indicate a state of distress.

PAN, PAN, PAN is used to indicate a state of urgency. 

Both are in the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary and are also described in the Controller’s manual 7110.65. So, the controller will know what either means. They are really just attention getters. You’re expected to describe the nature of your issue and any assistance you require after the initial announcement. Normally, you would follow a Mayday call by declaring an emergency, but you might elect not to do so after a Pan.

We had a partial power loss on the left engine on takeoff in the DC-3. I was right seat pilot flying. In the left seat was a retired airline captain. He took control and I ran checklists and did the troubleshooting (he has way more DC-3 time than I do, and I have better systems knowledge. It was good CRM). On downwind he asked me to declare an emergency. I asked if he wanted them to roll the equipment and he said “Hell yes. That’s what it’s there for!”  Point is that many of us may be hesitant to declare, but professional pilots are trained to use all the resources available. (We landed uneventfully. Cracked cylinder head).

Skip

And lets not forget...the emergency crews live for that call...so exercise them!!

[aviatoreb]

39 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

At the risk of being pedantic, it's technically "Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan." 

In all seriousness, though, I am terribly glad that we're talking to you and able to yuck it up like this.  Too many accident discussions lately, so it's nice to be able to give someone crap instead.

:-)

pan to you too good buddy!  Thanks!

E

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Not sure which part your disagreeing with, but if you’ve established comms with ATC IFR or VFR with code flight following. I would still see the Mayday or PAN-PAN useful if when you suddenly want to communicate and the frequency is busy, then interrupt. But if not, just directly communicate your issue with call sign e.g. “Mooney 123 engine failure, i’m trying for a field….”
The controller knows that’s an emergency but i am sure they’ll confirm with their follow up questions of souls on board etc as time permits.
Using Mayday doesn’t add anything over the nature of your distress of engine failure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Assumption is your not flight following as was stated. Then a sudden call to ATC that Mooney xxxx has an engine failure, trying for the field isn’t going to mean much as they have no idea where you are, or how many on board or anything else. Even switching to 7700 won’t tell them much except location.

In a PAN PAN situation you likely have time to discuss the issue, like for instance my fuel check indicates I’ll only have 15min fuel at arrival, they should clear you direct and ensure your number one for the approach, even if VFR, ATC can be your best friend, they may suggest something you aren’t aware of.

However even if the freq isn’t busy, establishing contact, declaring a PAN PAN gets the what’s the nature of the urgency, fuel ,souls on board and more importantly them assigning a squawk and knowing your exact location is already done, so if it becomes a Mayday call none of that needs doing, it can be I’m going down, send help call.

Of course if you get to where your going cancelling the PAN PAN is as simple as saying cancel it please, we are landing assured, thanks for the help.

PAN PAN is meant to give a heads up that things could deteriorate to a Mayday, like a rough running engine or even a medical issue with a passenger or anything that’s not good, but isn’t quite an Emergency. 

You don’t want to use it, fine your the PIC, I’m just trying to let folks know that something exists that’s less than declaring an Emergency is all.

I can absolutely assure you that ATC knows exactly what s PAN PAN call is, it won’t confuse them for a second

[201Mooniac]

49 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

And lets not forget...the emergency crews live for that call...so exercise them!!

When I had a gear problem I told the controller I was circling to put the gear down and then would make a normal approach to landing.  Next thing I know the trucks were rolling down the taxiway without me declaring an emergency, the controller did it on my behalf.  When I parked the fireman who came over to me thanked me for getting them called out as they were really bored.

[A64Pilot]

It’s normal in Moultrie Ga to use the sod between the runway and taxiway for a grass strip, so one time I asked the Albany Ga TWR if they would mind if I used the sod between 16 and the taxiway, cause I’d rather land on grass.

They asked if I needed crash rescue, so I said never mind I’ll use 16.

Up in Americus Frankie Williams always used the taxiway to land and takeoff in his crop duster, never bothered anyone.

What’s normal in one place will it seems cause real problems somewhere else.

[hubcap]

I had a gear experience last year up at KRAP. I was cleared to land but couldn't get the gear lights to come on. Did a low pass for the tower to look and they said it looked "down". Went around cycled the gear 3 more times but never got a light. Landed uneventfully. The local mechanic swung the gear 3 times the next day and said the lights came on every time. That problem has never re-curred, but it did add a little excitement to the trip.

[N201MKTurbo]

When this happens, try stomping your feet on the floorboards right in front of the pilots seat. When the contactors fail, a little bit of agitation may get them un-stuck. Both the contactors and the actuator are mounted under your feet. Even if you have a brush falling out or other loose connection, a little agitation may help.

Edited April 14, 2022 by N201MKTurbo