KCOE Cd'a ID Gear up??

[Dick Denenny]

Hear about a gear up landing at KCOE. Coeur d'Alene, ID/

[wiguy]

 A week or so ago. 
 

   http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/03/mooney-m20k-n252ca-incident-occurred.html
 

   https://es.flightaware.com/live/flight/N252CA
 

 

 

[carusoam]

Matter of fact we have…

Why?

One of the benefits of being a member of MS… is having the ability to speak openly about things that cause GU landings…

Essentially, everyone is capable of having one… it is up to everyone to find what works for them…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Dick Denenny]

Any way we can get the insurance carriers to not cover pilot error for gear up landings and we can reduce the cost of insuranfce for those of us that are willing to accept the cost and expense of our own mistakes. i buy for those things over which I have no control. I don't expect the rest of the population to pay for my personal stupidity and am willing to pay for it myself if it happens. Dick

[carusoam]

50 minutes ago, Dick Denenny said:

Any way we can get the insurance carriers to not cover pilot error for gear up landings and we can reduce the cost of insuranfce for those of us that are willing to accept the cost and expense of our own mistakes. i buy for those things over which I have no control. I don't expect the rest of the population to pay for my personal stupidity and am willing to pay for it myself if it happens. Dick

You could probably go that way…

But the challenge with the logic is…

Everybody else in the pool….

Our costs are affected by everything including airliners…

 

Aviation insurance isn’t quite like automotive insurance where you get to select the deductible level that works for you…

Might need to get AOPA to work on that if it makes sense…

PP thoughts only, not an insurance guru…

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

I think it makes enormous sense to have policy deductible. I can take a 50K hit. I don't want to take a 500K hit.

 

[steingar]

I still drop the gear 3 miles out...

[FlyingDude]

Garmin knows enough to tell that you're above or below 800' AGL when GFC500 gets engaged...  Maybe that knowledge could be coupled with the gear indicator to remind you every 100' during descend to drop the gear, if you haven't already...

[Aerodon]

11 hours ago, Dick Denenny said:

Any way we can get the insurance carriers to not cover pilot error for gear up landings and we can reduce the cost of insuranfce for those of us that are willing to accept the cost and expense of our own mistakes. i buy for those things over which I have no control. I don't expect the rest of the population to pay for my personal stupidity and am willing to pay for it myself if it happens. Dick

There are gear ups for other reasons.  Broken no back spring for one.  Something snagged on a gear.  Broken hardware etc.

[larrynimmo]

4 hours ago, Aerodon said:

There are gear ups for other reasons.  Broken no back spring for one.  Something snagged on a gear.  Broken hardware etc.

Another conspiracy theorist…I literally have only heard of one single event where gear failed to drop due to a failed “no back spring”…therefore that shouldn’t even really be in the equation 

[A64Pilot]

11 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I think it makes enormous sense to have policy deductible. I can take a 50K hit. I don't want to take a 500K hit.

 

Buy a 50K airplane.

I understand your point, I carry high deductibles on a car and my house, Insurence guys always try to talk me into much lower deductibles. I tell them I buy insurence to cover a catastrophe not scratches and dents, heck those I’m not likely to report as I don’t want insurence rate going up anyway

I thought you could carry a high deductible on an airplane?

Edited April 5, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

8 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Garmin knows enough to tell that you're above or below 800' AGL when GFC500 gets engaged...  Maybe that knowledge could be coupled with the gear indicator to remind you every 100' during descend to drop the gear, if you haven't already...

There have even been automatic systems to drop gear if you forget, and we have an aural warning anyway. Piper I believe had the auto gear down, and it wouldn’t let them retract below a certain airspeed either

It’s my opinion people get OBE, Military slang, Overcome By Events. when we feel hurried we need to just go-around and try again, and adopt the attitude of never try to save a bad approach, when you find yourself high and fast, it might just could because the wheels are up?

We should be asking why no airliners land with the wheels up.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

Another conspiracy theorist…I literally have only heard of one single event where gear failed to drop due to a failed “no back spring”…therefore that shouldn’t even really be in the equation 

I would really, really like to know how many no-back springs have failed, is there any data available?

Edited April 5, 2022 by A64Pilot

[FlyingDude]

18 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Piper I believe had the auto gear down,

It did and it caused accidents so they removed the automation.

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

We should be asking why no airliners land with the wheels up.

Could it be the automation, the voice callouts, the second pilots who is always along on the ride calling out checklists, the frequent training rides in the simulator with their jobs on the line?

[GeeBee]

Actually, Piper removed the automation, then by popular demand brought it back. (See this month's Aviation Consumer) Personally, when I go in an Arrow, putting the system on override was part of my preflight action. End of problem.

 

[65MooneyPilot]

There are two systems in a Boeing plus a checklist being read by the pilot monitoring to not land with the gear up. One is when you select landing flaps and when the thrust levers are at idle power below 500 feet. One results in a very loud horn and the other (GPWS) tells you “To Low Gear” Both pilots have to verify in the checklist the gear is down. 
I was waiting to land at JFK and a cargo plane landed gear up. Ended up going to LaGuardia instead. 

[A64Pilot]

18 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Since you asked.  I searched the FAA Accidents and Incidents Data Base for "No Back" spring.  It turned up two (2) cases of gear-up landing caused by a landing gear actuator that was jammed by a broken No-back spring.  Interestingly both cases were in 2003.  This is probably due to the bad batch of springs with improper heat treat during manufacture.  I searched for "spring" and also "actuator" in conjunction with Mooney but it did not yield any additional cases of jammed gear or gear-up landings.

Occurrence Date    2003-07-05            Aircraft Registration    557RM
Aircraft Make    MOONEY            Aircraft Group    M20
Aircraft Model    M20R            Aircraft Technical Certificate    2A3
Airworthiness Class                 Airframe Hours    623
Aircraft Damage    MINOR            Accident Type    WHEELS-UP LANDING
Total Killed    0            Total Injured    0
Event Type    Unknown            Flight Phase    LEVEL OFF TOUCHDOWN
General Cause Category    OPDEF, OTHER THAN PILOT            Operational Supporting Factor     
Owner Operator Name                 Air Carrier     
Engine Make                 Engine Model     
Engine Group                 Engine Technical Certificate     
Accident City    OXFORD            Accident State Code    CT
Document Last Modified    2012-08-08

 

Text

(-23) ACCORDING TO THE PILOT IN COMMAND, HE WAS ON A VFR FLIGHT PLAN FROM SANFORD ME. TO ROCHESTER NH. WHILE ON FINAL APPROACH, THE LANDING GEAR FAILED TO EXTEND. THE PILOT DIVERTED TO WATERBURY OXFORD AIRPORT IN CT, WHERE HE LANDED GEAR UP. INVESTIGATION REVEALED THAT THE LANDING GEAR ACTUATOR "NO BACK SPRING" HAD A BROKEN TAB WHICH CAUSED THE ACTUATOR TO MALFUNCTION. THIS MALFUNCTION CAUSED THE GEAR TO REMAIN IN THE UP POSITION.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Occurrence Date    2003-10-30            Aircraft Registration    2234X
Aircraft Make    MOONEY            Aircraft Group    M20
Aircraft Model    M20S            Aircraft Technical Certificate    2A3
Airworthiness Class                 Airframe Hours    960
Aircraft Damage    MINOR            Accident Type    WHEELS-UP LANDING
Total Killed    0            Total Injured    0
Event Type    INCIDENT - GENERAL AVIATION            Flight Phase    LEVEL OFF TOUCHDOWN
General Cause Category    OPDEF, OTHER THAN PILOT            Operational Supporting Factor     
Owner Operator Name                 Air Carrier     
Engine Make                 Engine Model     
Engine Group                 Engine Technical Certificate     
Accident City    TOMS RIVER            Accident State Code    NJ
Document Last Modified    2008-12-15

Text

(-23) LANDING GEAR WOULD NOT EXTEND. PILOT LANDED AIRCRAFT GEAR UP. AIRCRAFT RECEIVED MINOR DAMAGE TO THE BELLY PAN, BOTH NOSE GEAR DOORS, AND PROPELLER. THE AIRCRAFT WAS JACKED AND THE GEAR WAS TESTED IN NORMAL AND EMERGENCY SYSTEMS. GEAR WOULD NOT MOVE IN EITHER POSITION. DISCONNECTED GEAR LINKAGE FROM THE LANDING GEAR ACTUATOR AND THE GEAR FREELY MOVED TO THE DOWN POSITION. DISASSEMBLED THE LANDING GEAR ACTUATOR. FOUND THE TABS HAD BROKEN OFF THE NO BACK CLUTCH SPRING PREVENTING THE GEAR FROM MOVING IN EITHER NORMAL OR EMERGENCY POSITION.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, but one wonders since it may be an incident and not an accident, is there always an investigation.

I really need to take one of these things apart to investigate it, but if it’s what I think it is, there should be almost no wear, and if the springs are properly heat treated and not placed under loads beyond spec, there should be very little fatigue, they should last for a great many cycles

In other words, it would seem likely that the motor brushes or gears would wear out before these springs should or fatigue to failure. 
Thing is, almost always when things fail due to fatigue there are several failures and at an increasing rate, not just two, and those 20 years ago, logically there should have been an ever increasing number of failures, unless of course that most all are being changed out, which would explain the no failures. But every Mooney driver I meet with a J model I ask if they have changed the no back spring, now while I’ve not met many, but I’ve not met one yet that even knew what I was talking about.

Except for this forum I wouldn’t have heard of it.

Makes me wonder how many are flying around with their original springs like I am, and I can’t get LASAR to return my calls or answer by email, which makes me think they don’t want to sell me one as in they don’t have one to sell.

One MSC I called about them some time ago told me that if during the retract test if the gear moved smoothly with no excess noise or jumping / jittering that I didn’t need to do anything, that was all they did, and this guy has overhauled many actuators. 

Don't get me wrong, I’d change the spring if I could get one, had LASAR put me on the list months ago, but I can’t get one.

I just looked, those two aircraft I assume due to hours had original springs, and one was a 99 model, and the other a 2000. unless I messed up of course, but looking up N numbers isn’t hard

Edited April 7, 2022 by A64Pilot

[carusoam]

A64,

Find @Hyett6420 he has pics in his collection…

IIRC… the surface cracks are visible in the spring….

There are many at the bend at the end of the spring…

the rest is a function of material science…

 

My guess… the cracks shouldn’t be there… metallurgy 101.  

PP thoughts only, not a metallurgist…

Best regards,

-a-

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Dont forget the vertical fine in the search it’s important. 

Okay, you've got my curiosity up??     What does the | do?  Or what do you think it does?  I've never seen it used in a Google Search.

Trying it the only thing it did was bring up mooneyspace.com as the first item, but not specific to the "no back spring" thread.  With the “no back spring” I get some mooneyspace.com articles as the first thing.

The way I've always searched for articles from a specific site is:  “no back spring” site:mooneyspace.com       (no spaces between the "site:" and the URL)

[carusoam]

I’m pretty good at translating New English to Olde English…. 
 

And found one of Mr. Hyett’s pics in this here aged thread….

This link brings you to the page… 

May 24, 2016…  brings you to Andrew’s pics…

Way to go Andrew!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

The | tells google to look at mooneyspace.com. 

Not really.   At least not for the search you're talking about.   Try both and look how adding the site:mooneyspace.com brings up only related posts from here.

With the | mooneyspace your first hit is the generic mooneyspace.com, then you get a couple of back spring articles then a mix of things.  Basically what you get if you just search for “no back spring” by itself.

[Fly Boomer]

site:mooneyspace.com is what I use for Chrome/DuckDuckGo with good results.

[carusoam]

11 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Not really.   At least not for the search you're talking about.   Try both and look how adding the site:mooneyspace.com brings up only related posts from here.

With the | mooneyspace your first hit is the generic mooneyspace.com, then you get a couple of back spring articles then a mix of things.  Basically what you get if you just search for “no back spring” by itself.

I’m no IT guy…  which I think Andrew may be….   

Pete, are you using the same vertical bar as Andrew?

Yours appears to have an italicized slant to it from my iPad… not perfectly vertical like the one Andrew is using… / | /  |

The | is next to the § sign….

Just wondering…

Google has a really powerful search mechanism…  even without the vertical bar, I came across the spring pics easily based on Andrew’s prior response…

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

There is a fellow who posts here who geared up his C/D because the gear received some faulty maintenance and wouldn't retract.

I suspect our rates reflect things like the Max crashes far more than the occasional (or not so occasional) gear up accident.  I'm watching to see what'll happen with events in Russia.  Apparently no one owns airplanes anymore, they're all leased.  There are on the order of 500 leased airliners flying around in Russia. As soon as the sanctions hit the lessors wanted the airplanes back.  Putin said no, and had them all registered as Russian airliners.  They have now disappeared into a black hole from which they will never again appear except possibly as used parts.  That's billions in losses, and I don't who who's going to absorb it.