New paint and window issue.... am I being unreasonable?

[NotarPilot]

On January 24th, I dropped off my airplane at [name redacted] paint shop in ***** Maria, CA to have it repainted and all windows replaced. They told me it would take 6 weeks, which is about a week longer than usual, because of the windows. I should add that 2021 was a bad year for my plane where I unexpectedly had to replace the engine, which added to a series of delays in getting my airplane to the paint shop. The plane was scheduled for paint May of 2021, which was also delayed due to the shop that resealed the tanks took longer than expected by 3 weeks. Because of this, I rescheduled the paint for January 2021 and decided to have the planned avionics upgrade done in October (Before it got painted). The avionics ended up taking about 4 weeks longer than expected. I should also add that I made a deposit to the paint shop for the windows and paint of $2,382 back in October 2020. This is over a year before the plane ever made it to the shop, last month. I thought they would have used this money to order the windows before the airplane arrived.

Today, I called the paint shop to get an update and find out if it was going to be ready on time (March 7th). I was told that they had a delay because there is a long lead time with the  company that sells the windows. Therefore, the plane still has not been painted and is now just sitting there waiting for the windows. I was told they had to switch vendors and the windows were shipped yesterday from Oklahoma but they were not provided a tracking number. I told them I was under the belief that they would order the windows with the deposit I sent them long ago. I was told they do not order the windows until the airplane is delivered to them. It seems to me that with today's supply chain issues, shops would order needed parts in advance to avoid this kind of issue. The avionics shop I used ordered the parts well in advance of me dropping off my plane, using the deposit money I sent. Seems quite reasonable if you ask me.

I dropped off my airplane to have the tanks resealed back in April 2021 before being grounded for a new engine, new avionics and now paint. I've been without my airplane nearly a year now. I'm anxious to get my airplane back. I'll also add that my airplane is scheduled for an annual next month, which I told the paint shop about. Am I unreasonable to think they should have had these windows ordered or in their possession before I dropped off the airplane?

 

Steve

[N201MKTurbo]

That sucks. 
 

I hope it all works well.

[carusoam]

Bummer…

What was the point of such a large deposit?

Are they earning some kind of interest on that?

officially, you can Now be really annoyed… 

 

Their goofiness has earned you the right to call them every day that you want an update on the status of your plane…. Or remind them to order the other raw materials that they will need to finish your project…

PP thoughts only, not a project engineer…

Reminder… annoying the guy doing the work on your plane may be counterproductive…

Annoying the sales guy… is a national sport. Done properly… it may earn you some additional benefit…

Good luck getting to the end!

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

I was in a similar situation about 15 years ago.

I was really pissed and read them the riot act. They rushed to get my plane done and I’ve been suffering ever since.

I hate to say it, but your best bet Is to let them do the best job they can. You don’t want them to rush it.

[Utah20Gflyer]

The supply chain issues are both real and seemingly random.  So it's possible it was something completely out of their control or it could just be an excuse.    I just got my plane back after a 3 and a half month annual so I feel your pain to some degree.    It sucks to own a plane and not be able to fly it. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I need to specify a microcontroller for a new design. All the perfect parts are showing a delivery date of 2-28-2023. OMG!

Someone explained the chip shortage to me today. I feel silly for not understanding it earlier.

It is just like toilet paper in 2020. All companies who used to do JIT manufacturing, started to buy everything they need for the next year or so of production, and actively buying anything that becomes available. The manufacturers are hoarding chips, so there are none available because everybody is buying anything that is available, as soon as it is available, therefore everybody is out of everything.

I think, like a Ponzi scheme, a day will come soon where everybody figures they have way more inventory than they need, and the semiconductor market will crash.

[NotarPilot]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Bummer…

What was the point of such a large deposit?

The deposit is necessary to confirm a slot with the shop.

8 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I hate to say it, but your best bet Is to let them do the best job they can. You don’t want them to rush it.

You’re right, I wasn’t going to hound them or raise hell. I just think it was poor planning on a reputable and experienced shop to wait until delivery to order the windows. They said they have the paint in stock, just waiting on these windows. I’m also surprised they wouldn’t get a tracking number when they were informed that the windows were shipped. 
 

8 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

The supply chain issues are both real and seemingly random. So it's possible it was something completely out of their control or it could just be an excuse.

I under That, which is why I would think they should have preplanned for that. At the very least they should have called the window manufacturers 1 or  2 months before drop-off and inquired about lead times. Seems that wasn’t done. Again, this is a shop that’s been around for a long time. They should know this stuff.

7 hours ago, GEE-BEE AEROPRODUCTS said:

Your at fault as you should have controlled your parts /  windows order .

You want your shop to use there capital while your plane is not ready for them ?

Order from LP aero , ship to the shop , that’s complete.

I order my paint from a vendor and control all items for restoration.

I had to purchase 10 lbs of power coat paint as I was doing a spec color Porsche 366 Mexico blue and the mfg was in charge.

2200.00 for ten pounds of powder and were only using two pounds for this project.

If you control all items and delivery to vendors you will have no problem.

learn from your mistakes and help others .

In hindsight, you are correct, but I expected an experienced shop to account for this. Had I know what I know now I would do exactly what you suggest and that would be to order the windows and have them shipped to the paint shop. But really, should a customer really have to do that? I’m paying almost $24,000 for windows and paint. They should be on top of that IMHO. Should I really have to order the paint for a paint shop?

But you’re right, hopefully other owners can learn from my mistakes. Let’s see how much longer this sets me back. I can’t get too upset. I had to cancel and reschedule my drop offs several times because of circumstances beyond my control and they still honored the quote they gave me in 2020.

[tony]

I really think the paint shop wants your airplane completed just as bad as you do.  You lost your slot in the schedule and now you are fill in work.  Covid has changed the everything. Supply issues, labor issues.....  My advice is just be patient with them.  Frankly you really have no choice at this point.  The last thing you want is for them to cut corners.

Edited February 24, 2022 by tony
:)

[ilovecornfields]

If it’s the paint shop I’m thinking about, they are notorious for almost always being delayed. When I purchased my plane I had them do some touch up paint. I foolishly planned a trip the day after they were supposed to be done (after they assured me they would be) and showed up with my family ready to go only to find out they weren’t done yet. Ended up going back about three times and then finally gave up when I realized that they really seemed to have no interest in finishing and doing quality work.

I’ve seen some beautiful pictures of their work and I know a couple of people here are big cheerleaders for them, but based on my experience I decided that if I ever needed any painting (even touch up) I would go elsewhere. I was using the shop across the ramp from them for maintenance at the time and I mentioned how annoyed I was with the delay and lack of communication about the delay and they suggested my experience was not unique.

I visited T&P Aero Refinishers at Salinas a couple of years ago and was really impressed. I decided that’s where I would go if I needed painting.

[carusoam]

Keep in mind…

When companies take in a down payment to reserve a spot in the schedule… $100 is enough to cover the cost of scheduling…

The purpose of taking in anything larger is to cover the cost of purchasing raw materials that might become useless if the customer flakes and doesn’t  come in….

Being an expert in their industry… those people have their fingers on the new costs and availability of all of the raw materials they are going to need…

 

Inflation is going to make contracts even more serious than they were in the past… as raw material prices are going to change during the length of the project…

Watch what you sign… read every line….ask questions…

It is going to be painful to have the price change above what you initially agreed upon… expect they may say things like they couldn’t predict the changes… when they should have bought the supplies already…

 

In the past… it was normal to provide a large downpayment that covered the costs of the raw materials… that way, they were available for your project, when your machine got there for the work….

If things fell apart… your contract would give guidance for what happened to your raw materials….

Keep your eyes on the project… and it’s proper, and timely completion…

If you ever think getting a lawyer involved… things have really gone the wrong way…

 

The environment has changed…it always did, and always will…

Good luck getting past the pay point! 

Time to break out the financial calculator app…

re-read the notes on the time value of money…

 

Kind of forward thinking ideas on what to possibly expect, so you can better handle what may be coming down the line…

PP thoughts only, with experience in the machine building and maintenance arena…

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

GeeBee says Gee-Bee is correct. Control your parts if you can. I recently had some work done and I purchased the required items, down to the circuit breakers needed and delivered them to the shop with the airplane. Yes, you often cannot control the delivery say of a Garmin G1000 as you are not a dealer, but everything else that I can I kit up, I get the impression that most shops like this approach as it is easier on them to stay on task rather than ordering stuff in which there is little margin, large working capital expenditures and time for which they don't get paid.

[NotarPilot]

8 hours ago, tony said:My advice is just be patient with them.  Frankly you really have no choice at this point.  The last thing you want is for them to cut corners.

I agree with you 100%.

8 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

If it’s the paint shop I’m thinking about, they are notorious for almost always being delayed.

I wish I had known that before going with that. Based on those “cheerleaders” I figured they would stick to their word. 
 

When I dropped off the plane they were going over the plane and talking about everything they were going to do. I even said, “Wow, you guys are going to do all that in six weeks?” And the woman said with confidence “Yes.”

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Inflation is going to make contracts even more serious than they were in the past… as raw material prices are going to change during the length of the project…

All the more reason I would think they would have ordered those windows in advance.

I guess in light of everything else going on in the world this is small potatoes. It’s just a little frustrating that each shop has overpromised on delivery times for me in the past year. I even figured in some buffer time after each promised delivery date for the following project and it still wasn’t enough. Ah, the joys of aircraft ownership.

[MooneyMitch]

Maybe let them know you’re making a progress movie regarding your paint/window project...... that seemed to light a fire under them with another MS fellow recently!!

[NotarPilot]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

Maybe let them know you’re making a progress movie regarding your paint/window project...... that seemed to light a fire under them with another MS fellow recently!!

I’m not trying to make them rush, Mitch. I don’t want them to rush the project, I just wish they were better prepared with all the necessary items when I dropped off my plane. I’m just asking if my expectation was reasonable. But I like your idea. 

[ilovecornfields]

3 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

I’m not trying to make them rush, Mitch. I don’t want them to rush the project, I just wish they were better prepared with all the necessary items when I dropped off my plane. I’m just asking if my expectation was reasonable. But I like your idea. 

I think your expectation was reasonable, but that’s just a limitation of listening to people on the internet who like to speak in superlatives and silence the naysayers.

I had my Ovation flow across the country to take it to the “best MSC in the world” located in the state with big hats and it was a huge disappointment. Not only were they expensive and  late (by about a month) but they also didn’t order the parts until I reminded them and had the plane on the “back burner” and didn’t do things until I called. Not to mention missed a few items o specifically asked about that ended up costing me some $$$.

In retrospect, I probably shouldn’t have rushed them because they did a crappy job and incorrectly set the fuel flow and almost overheated my engine (among other things I’ve previously documented here) and then told me to pound sand when I tried to get them to make it right.

So my take on it is that you’re in a relationship with them now and it’s better to just let them do things at their own pace then try to pressure them and have them do an unsatisfactory job. Like I said, the pictures I’ve seen of their work is nice so in several years you probably won’t care that it took an extra month or two to get everything done.

[NotarPilot]

30 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:So my take on it is that you’re in a relationship with them now and it’s better to just let them do things at their own pace then try to pressure them and have them do an unsatisfactory job. Like I said, the pictures I’ve seen of their work is nice so in several years you probably won’t care that it took an extra month or two to get everything done.

I completely agree with you and yes, in 5 years I probably won’t care. But, I’ll probably write up my experience when this is all done just so others can learn from my personal experience and perhaps better manage their project with this or any other shop.

[carusoam]

This is an interesting ownership 102 kind of experience…

Where it really helps to have a project management background…

Ever use a Gantt Chart?

A nifty way to keep track of projects…

Including all the raw materials, the people, and the facility….

It will give you a heads up everywhere along the way, if something isn’T completed on time… how long the whole project will be delayed…

 

This is often a class taught at the masters level of engineering…

Anyone running a project, that owns a PC can learn the system…

 

It would make sense for major, repeat type projects, to use a system like this…

Painting planes…

Installing instrument panels…

Building a house… 

See how computer savvy the shop manager is…

If they do things based on experience…. That is classic and it works…

If they have project management experience… using a PC would bring their experience and performance to a higher level….

 

Using a paper system for managing a project… is a way to miss details, not communicate details very well, fall behind in a schedule and forget to tell somebody… or order something…

Go MS Project! 

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

6 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

I’m not trying to make them rush, Mitch. I don’t want them to rush the project, I just wish they were better prepared with all the necessary items when I dropped off my plane. I’m just asking if my expectation was reasonable. But I like your idea. 

I was being sarcastic and I apologize for such.  I completely understand your frustration!

As I’ve stated previously, stay as much engaged and persistent with them as you possibly can, politely and respectfully of course. That is very important. Check and verify each detail you want accomplished.  Visit often if possible. Leave nothing to chance, assume nothing.  If you do these things, you will be most pleased with the results.

What’s done at this point is history.   Move forward now and stay engaged with them.

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, NotarPilot said:

I completely agree with you and yes, in 5 years I probably won’t care. But, I’ll probably write up my experience when this is all done just so others can learn from my personal experience and perhaps better manage their project with this or any other shop.

Yes, please do write up your experience for future customers.

You are not doing a documentary for them, you are a regular customer and it is most important for others to learn from your experiences there.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

I completely agree with you and yes, in 5 years I probably won’t care. But, I’ll probably write up my experience when this is all done just so others can learn from my personal experience and perhaps better manage their project with this or any other shop.

I had them paint my wings and horizontal stabilizer a number of years ago.  They were only supposed to do the top, but went ahead and painted both top and bottom for no additional charge.  The also repaired and repainted my top cowling that had a serious crack in the paint.  I felt they went above and beyond what I asked for.

[MikeOH]

Well, after reading about this debacle, I'm really glad I'm not looking to paint my plane anytime soon!

I also can't help but be pretty disappointed in the comments that imply the OP was somehow responsible, even partly, for this. Frankly, this acceptance of poor service under the rationale of "that's just the reality of GA" only encourages this continued bad behavior by vendors.

[NotarPilot]

On 3/6/2022 at 7:08 PM, MikeOH said:

Well, after reading about this debacle, I'm really glad I'm not looking to paint my plane anytime soon!

I also can't help but be pretty disappointed in the comments that imply the OP was somehow responsible, even partly, for this. Frankly, this acceptance of poor service under the rationale of "that's just the reality of GA" only encourages this continued bad behavior by vendors.

This story has unfortunately taken a turn for the worse that I will write more about once I take delivery of my airplane. Hopefully they can keep their promise of having it done by May 18th. It was supposed to be ready last Monday on the 7th. Stay tuned. 

[kortopates]

well as someone that thinks a paint job isn't that far off in the future, I've been following along with most interest as they are not far from me. Please keep us informed.  

[NotarPilot]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:14 AM, kortopates said:

well as someone that thinks a paint job isn't that far off in the future, I've been following along with most interest as they are not far from me. Please keep us informed.  

Will do. This next week should be very telling how they handle this latest hiccup. I’m trying to refrain until I get my plane back before jumping the gun here. Once my plane is done and deliver I’ll share my full experience.

[NotarPilot]

This situation has taken another turn for the worse. I really want to write about it in detail but I’m reluctant to publish anything until I get my plane back. So far, as of today, they told me it would be ready in 6 weeks and that was 8 weeks ago. If anyone is intending to use this paint shop in Santa Maria, CA I would advise you to wait until you read what my experience. I’m extremely disappointed and upset with this shop right now.