Anyone have a used out of spec no back spring I can buy?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, philip_g said:

He has no purpose here other than to say he has a spring no one else can have. If you think he has any intentions of helping anyone that doesn't involve looneys in his pocket you're sadly mistaken.

 

At least he made my point for me. I guess these "only a few dollar an hour" springs are hard enough to get that they need to be hoarded when available.

When they came available at Mooney my wife bought a few we needed to support my customer base.  I did not hoard them, although I could have just as easily bought every one that Mooney had in stock on that day, but I didn't.  

Everyone knows that they need one of these every 1000 hours.  Start planning ahead or support a shop who does.

Clarence

[201Steve]

Hahahahah. The “loonies in your pocket” approach would be to list them on eBay with a starting price 4x its’ retail value. A drawer full of springs is worthless in buying a new boat until you convert it to cash. The prudent thing, the helpful thing, the business principled thing to do would be not to sell them to some random yahoos for the quick cash and save them for the people that have been putting food on your table for years. 
 

I don’t know the doc personally, but he’s provided more free advice, free information sourcing, free part lookups, free copies of Mx manual pages, free research, than anyone participating here. 
 

I can’t think of a more idiotic thing to say, both in principal, fact, and manners. 

[bmcconnaha]

45 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

When they came available at Mooney my wife bought a few we needed to support my customer base.  I did not hoard them, although I could have just as easily bought every one that Mooney had in stock on that day, but I didn't.  

Everyone knows that they need one of these every 1000 hours.  Start planning ahead or support a shop who does.

Clarence

Do you have an plessey springs? Could

you take me on for an annual this year, in sept? 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

Do you have an plessey springs? Could

you take me on for an annual this year, in sept? 

Sadly no joy on the spring, the one I have left is for an Eaton.  My Canadian licence doesn’t allow me to sign off your US airplane.

Clarence

[milotron]

Hi, I have this coming up soon. Is there really none available?

I am not familiar with this SB. Is it mandatory replacement or on condition?

I sounds like my annual next week is about to get a whole lot more expensive.

[toto]

Just now, milotron said:

Hi, I have this coming up soon. Is there really none available?

I am not familiar with this SB. Is it mandatory replacement or on condition?

I sounds like my annual next week is about to get a whole lot more expensive.

If you’re flying Part 91, then there’s no mandatory compliance. I had never even heard of a NBS until I read about it on MS. 

The only springs available are sitting on shop shelves, and I suspect there are very very few of those. I’m over 1000 hours on mine, and I’m kind of just waiting until someone starts making them again. 

There are a couple of really nice threads with write-ups on MS from Don Kaye and Andrew Hyett.

[milotron]

4 minutes ago, toto said:

If you’re flying Part 91, then there’s no mandatory compliance. I had never even heard of a NBS until I read about it on MS. 

The only springs available are sitting on shop shelves, and I suspect there are very very few of those. I’m over 1000 hours on mine, and I’m kind of just waiting until someone starts making them again. 

There are a couple of really nice threads with write-ups on MS from Don Kaye and Andrew Hyett.

Thanks, @M20Doc is this true for Canada?  Not mandatory for GA in Canada?

Are used springs with known hours suitable in a pinch? I hate that idea considering the my gear seems to be fine.

[Andy95W]

9 minutes ago, philip_g said:

Must have been on his upswing bipolar days. Usually he's just kind of miserable.

Please keep in mind that you’re the only one here who feels that way about Clarence. 

[toto]

1 hour ago, milotron said:

Are used springs with known hours suitable in a pinch? I hate that idea considering the my gear seems to be fine.

I think the “hours” measurement as a proxy for wear is kind of strange. We don’t normally track gear cycles for light aircraft, but that’s really the question we’re asking. If you do 1000 hours of landing practice, that spring could have 3-4000 cycles (or more) on it. But if you do 1000 hours of cross country flight, it would be considerably less.

I don’t think I’d want to remove a gear actuator from the plane and tear it apart to replace a functional used spring with another used spring unless I knew the donor aircraft very very well.

[Peter Rejto]

I'm kind of a newish member here at MooneySpace. I'm really off put and dismayed to read the personal attacks going on here. These all seem childish, unnecessary, and ultimately pointless....unless the point is to make other members "afraid" to post lest they be attacked in the same way. 

This thread is both important and interesting. In Australia, on the AMPA forum, a similar discussion started almost exactly at the same time. I'm happy to report that it is quite civilized and has a lot of good information. Unfortunately I cannot provide a link as it is a "AMPA members only" forum.

Peter

[ilovecornfields]

39 minutes ago, Peter Rejto said:

I'm kind of a newish member here at MooneySpace. I'm really off put and dismayed to read the personal attacks going on here. These all seem childish, unnecessary, and ultimately pointless....unless the point is to make other members "afraid" to post lest they be attacked in the same way. 

This thread is both important and interesting. In Australia, on the AMPA forum, a similar discussion started almost exactly at the same time. I'm happy to report that it is quite civilized and has a lot of good information. Unfortunately I cannot provide a link as it is a "AMPA members only" forum.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Welcome to the board. I’m sorry you are disillusioned by your experience. As the saying goes, “opinions are like external voluntary anal sphincters - everyone has one.” Some people seem to be a little more disinhibited than others and post things that probably didn’t need to be posted. Some are generally nice but do have very strong opinions on certain subjects. I’m certainly guilty of at least one of those.

Statistically, several people here would be expected to have mental health disorders. This board isn’t very strictly moderated which is a good thing because it allows for very open discussions. There are also clearly drawbacks that arise from this format as well.

There is an “ignore” feature that some of us find quite useful in the case where we’ve identified certain individuals whose posts rarely seem to contribute meaningfully to a civil discussion. The user will not know that you have blocked them so there’s really no harm in using it. 

Have you learned anything on your other discussion board that you would like to share?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, milotron said:

Thanks, @M20Doc is this true for Canada?  Not mandatory for GA in Canada?

Are used springs with known hours suitable in a pinch? I hate that idea considering the my gear seems to be fine.

There are no Chapter 4 limitations for your K model, so replacement is optional, although highly recommended.  I’ve checked all of the other maintenance manuals as well, all are the same with regards to the spring replacement.

Clarence

[Guest]

5 hours ago, philip_g said:

I very much doubt that based on his general attitude.

 

Wait until I tell you what I think of don Maxwell....

 

The hivemind here is strong.

Philip,

If indeed that is your name since you lack the decency to sign any of your posts here.  If you have something to say to me, muster up the courage to call me and say it in person and save the rest of this fine group from reading your words.

Clarence

519-580-1572
 

 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

There are no Chapter 4 limitations for your K model, so replacement is optional, although highly recommended.  I’ve checked all of the other maintenance manuals as well, all are the same with regards to the spring replacement.
Clarence

Have you ever replaced one and the old one was showing wear?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

Have you ever replaced one and the old one was showing wear?

The ones I’ve replaced have a little bit of a shine to the metal.  I’ve never actually measured a new spring and compared it to a used removed one, but I will.

Clarence

[1980Mooney]

On 2/17/2022 at 4:27 PM, philip_g said:

I want to provide an owner produced part for our actuator but I don't want to take ours out. We have the middle actuator, not dukes, not Eaton, avionics products company. I think it's the same as an eaton though? It's a long story but I can get one made in Japan but can't find a drawing or specifications

There has been a used one for sale on eBay for a while. 
Mooney M20J/K/L/M/R/S Avionics Products No Back Clutch Spring - P/N 203207-1  $259.

It’s Avionics Products - isn’t that what you want? If so surprised you haven’t started there

Edited February 21, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Mark89114]

How many airplanes have actually landed gear up due to this spring breaking?

[toto]

3 minutes ago, Mark89114 said:

How many airplanes have actually landed gear up due to this spring breaking?

Very few. The bad news is that when the spring breaks on landing, the emergency extension won’t work - so you’re pretty much committed to a GU at that point. Aiui, the more common scenario is breaking on retraction. 

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Have you ever replaced one and the old one was showing wear?

If the failure mechanism is what I think it is, I don’t think there is much if any wear, it’s fatigue.

If they break where I think they do (right at the bend of the “tang”) that further supports the fatigue theory, it also I believe supports the possibility that there was a string of either improperly heat treated springs and or possibly incorrect procedure in bending of some, but not all?

Manufacturers very often purchase items made by others to their specifications and vendors change all of the time, some vendors produce a better product than others.

Be interesting to know if the failed springs are within a narrow range of manufacturing dates, or evenly distributed across the years.

 

Of course all of this is guessing as I have NO experience with these springs at all, I could be completely wrong, probably way off base, but wish Mooney would purchase 100 of these things, they sell for $1K, there is no way they could cost anything near that, has to be a great profit in them,maybe their supplier has decided not to produce them due to possible liability or something?

On edit, if it were wear, then you could inspect the thing, but crack growth in high strength steel is so rapid, that there is no effective inspection method, tail wheel springs for instance, they are fine, then suddenly break, you can eddy current one and it’s fine but breaks a few hours later, best you’ll can do is establish a replacement interval.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by A64Pilot

[ArtVandelay]

There has been a used one for sale on eBay for a while. 
Mooney M20J/K/L/M/R/S Avionics Products No Back Clutch Spring - P/N 203207-1  $259.
It’s Avionics Products - isn’t that what you want? If so surprised you haven’t started there

This could be one that was replaced, and have 2000 hours for all you know.

[cliffy]

First off kiddies- Mooney didn't make the springs in-house. They were farmed out to a spring maker.

The batch that was bad had cracking right in the bend of the tang from heat treating

Springs can be tested for strength and rebound but they tend to fail suddenly for a variety of reasons. 

Mooney HAS the part drawing describing exactly how to produce the part. They have a drawing for EVERY part in any Mooney on exactly how to make it. 

But its called "PROPRIETARY INFORMATION" held by the certificate owner. There are dozens of file cabinets in Engineering that hold these drawings 

I saw them many years ago. 

The drawing will detail exactly what material to use, what the dimensions are, what kind of heat treat etc.

Doing an OPP is not just reverse engineering the part. One actually needs paper work to support how the part is supposed to be made to make it match the "APPROVED"  part.  As an owner you can't just magically say "presto -chango" this is an approved part because I made it. 

You can't just say "I think this is how they made it" You need some kind of legal reference on how it was made OR a complete DER sign off. 

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

This could be one that was replaced, and have 2000 hours for all you know.

Exactly - it is in fact used and advertised in such condition (either salvaged or a replaced spring).  At the beginning of this topic the OP said he just wants an old used one to get the dimensions and reverse engineer it by a supplier in Japan. 

As said above, an owner might be able to make a replacement spring that looks like it fits and actually works.....for a while!  Without testing no-one will know the actual life of the "new" OPP spring. For all anyone knows, the new OPP spring might have a shorter life than the original.  The irony is that the owner might go to all this work only to have the spring fail sooner than if he had never touched the original at all.

Edited February 21, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[carusoam]

On 2/17/2022 at 7:01 PM, philip_g said:

I think he figured I could make 100 of them  pretty cheap. I don't really want to go into the business of selling non PMA parts and get fined by the FAA (ala geebee)

 

On 2/19/2022 at 10:43 AM, philip_g said:

He has no purpose here other than to say he has a spring no one else can have. If you think he has any intentions of helping anyone that doesn't involve looneys in his pocket you're sadly mistaken.

 

At least he made my point for me. I guess these "only a few dollar an hour" springs are hard enough to get that they need to be hoarded when available.

I sense some stress in the above posts…

1) It appears the writer is trying to do the right thing…

2) Has never done this before…

3) lost sight of what he was trying to accomplish…

4) wrote some disrespectful things about other MSers…

 

This is where somebody writes a reminder…

 

MS is on the internet… it is not the internet…

It isn’t a place to be unkind to other people in the community…

Even momentary unkindness… written on the internet… seems to stick around for quite some time…

 

People come to MS, because they want to be here…

 

Expect to not be understood, all of the time, by everyone…

Stay focused…

Take the time… bring everyone up to speed with what you are trying to do… how you are going about it…

Recognize all of the people that have left you quality guidance…. They have pointed out bumps in the road you haven’t gotten to yet…

 

Imagine what it is like being amongst many people that have decades of aviation experience… you have the audience you want… you started the conversation…

Then you forgot why you started the thread…

Where are you going to go when you really need some Mooney related help?
 It is easy to have people hit the ignore button on you… being the most ignored MSer isn’t the goal is it?

There are right ways and wrong ways to achieve an objective… work on doing it the right way… real MSers have tried to point out the right way for you…

Keep in mind… using a tiny screen as an interface for MS… leaves out a lot of information…  you have to look people up to know something about who they are…

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, cliffy said:

First off kiddies- Mooney didn't make the springs in-house. They were farmed out to a spring maker.

The batch that was bad had cracking right in the bend of the tang from heat treating

Springs can be tested for strength and rebound but they tend to fail suddenly for a variety of reasons. 

Mooney HAS the part drawing describing exactly how to produce the part. They have a drawing for EVERY part in any Mooney on exactly how to make it. 

But its called "PROPRIETARY INFORMATION" held by the certificate owner. There are dozens of file cabinets in Engineering that hold these drawings 

I saw them many years ago. 

The drawing will detail exactly what material to use, what the dimensions are, what kind of heat treat etc.

Doing an OPP is not just reverse engineering the part. One actually needs paper work to support how the part is supposed to be made to make it match the "APPROVED"  part.  As an owner you can't just magically say "presto -chango" this is an approved part because I made it. 

You can't just say "I think this is how they made it" You need some kind of legal reference on how it was made OR a complete DER sign off. 

Wouldn’t the manufacturer of the gear actuator have designed the actuator to handle the loads that Mooney provided them and then either manufactured or sourced the manufacturer of the spring.

In the case of the Plessey parts no longer exist.  In the case of the Eaton, has anyone tried to source them directly from Eaton if Mooney is unable to secure a steady supply?

Clarence

[ArtVandelay]

Wouldn’t the manufacturer of the gear actuator have designed the actuator to handle the loads that Mooney provided them and then either manufactured or sourced the manufacturer of the spring.
In the case of the Plessey parts no longer exist.  In the case of the Eaton, has anyone tried to source them directly from Eaton if Mooney is unable to secure a steady supply?
Clarence

I can’t find it but I believe someone tried calling Eaton, they said they were under contract to provide parts to Mooney or something to that effect. Of course if I got a order for 1, I might just say go away too.
But if MS conglomerate put in a order for 100+, maybe it would be worth the trouble?