Fitting M20J with TKS

[Ibra]

Anyone has fitting their M20J with TKS, what is involved in it’s maintenance? how much was the dollar cost? how much was the speed cost? assuming the install was for TKS on windshield & wings with an electric hot propeller…

Mission is mostly flying at 10kft over flat plains & water 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Ibra

[alextstone]

6 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Anyone has fitting their M20J with TKS, what is involved in it’s maintenance? how much was the dollar cost? how much was the speed cost? assuming the install was for TKS on windshield & wings with an electric hot propeller…

Mission is mostly flying at 10kft over flat plains & water 

It will cost $50-70 k and it will not be FIKI certified  You're better off buying a Bravo with FIKI in my opinion

[toto]

2 hours ago, alextstone said:

It will cost $50-70 k and it will not be FIKI certified  You're better off buying a Bravo with FIKI in my opinion

I believe you can buy a FIKI install, which is about $10k more than the non-FIKI setup. 

ETA: They list the K model but not the J model in the FIKI brochure, so I dunno. 

https://www.cav-systems.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/TKS-Mooney-M20-FIKI-Specification-2019-2.pdf

[alextstone]

I believe you can buy a FIKI install, which is about $10k more than the non-FIKI setup. 
ETA: They list the K model but not the J model in the FIKI brochure, so I dunno. 
https://www.cav-systems.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/TKS-Mooney-M20-FIKI-Specification-2019-2.pdf

Well, I believe one of the requirements for FIKI is dual batteries. The J has
only one, correct?

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

[toto]

18 minutes ago, alextstone said:

Well, I believe one of the requirements for FIKI is dual batteries. The J has
only one, correct?

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk
 

The K has only one battery too iirc - the second battery was added for the long bodies. 

[LANCECASPER]

FIKI Requirement is dual alternators, not dual batteries. I had a '97 FIKI Encore with one battery and dual alternators. I heard that they don't do the non-FIKI installs anymore but their website still shows a brochure. I believe also that FIKI has to be a 28 volt aircraft which the Original post isn't, it's a 1981. @CAV Ice will know for sure.

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, toto said:

The K has only one battery too iirc - the second battery was added for the long bodies. 

Rockets have a second battery…

Erik’s Rocket has the TKS anti ice system…  (find the Pi Plane)

So… those are examples of a mid body having a TKS system…

 

If anyone is serious about getting a TKS system on their plane… we have TKS as an MSer….   
 

TKS is a great device for flying out of icing conditions…

If you commute to work in your Mooney… this would be on the list for desired devices….

As would be the long body, spare battery, and Fiki….   

Would you like the espresso machine to go with that?

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Bartman]

A few years ago I remember All American had a J with TKS and a turbo at not a bad price and it was listed for several months.  I called about it but didn’t want to own a unicorn. I decided I’d keep my J and the best upgrade path for me would have been the 252 with TKS. 

[Ibra]

I feel a bit that Encore or Bravo with FIKI is overkill for my mission: I fly mostly in 10kft and usually plenty of room to tactically avoid ice by descent rather than drive into it or climb above, in these cases the distinction "FIKI TKS" vs "non-FIKI TKS" is less relevant, I was used to rent FIKI NA Cirrus and I flew it the same way as an M20J: all the time OUT of icing conditions (easy as the local area is plains & beaches rather than mountains)

Specifically on NA M20J, which is really under-powered for climbs, what does one gets out of his his TKS install? and what is the gain & loss: how much is maintenance cost & speed cost? and what is involved in MX?

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ibra

[RoundTwo]

Looking at their site, the J is listed for retrofit, non-FIKI.
 

https://www.cav-systems.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/TKS-Mooney-M20-Specification-2019-2.pdf

R2

[aviatoreb]

24 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I feel a bit that Encore or Bravo with FIKI is overkill for my mission: I fly mostly in 10kft and usually plenty of room to tactically avoid ice by descent rather than drive into it or climb above, in these cases the distinction "FIKI TKS" vs "non-FIKI TKS" is less relevant, I was used to rent FIKI NA Cirrus and I flew it the same way as an M20J: all the time OUT of icing conditions (easy as the local area is plains & beaches rather than mountains)

Specifically on NA M20J, which is really under-powered for climbs, what does one gets out of his his TKS install? and what is the gain & loss: how much is maintenance cost & speed cost? and what is involved in MX?

 

I have a non FIKI system on my M20K rocket - it was installed in 1994 before the airplane was converted to a rocket.

The maintenance is very low.  Once about 10 years ago I had to replace a pump.  Once maybe 5 years ago a titanium wing stall strip fell off and it was very expensive to get another - and no I know how to prevent that (wiggle the stall strips now and then to see if they are loose - the glue dries up in time).

Other than that the only maintenance has been - use it - meaning don't ever go more than a month without running it even if briefly to wet it - since otherwise it dries up and clogs. Much better if it is closer to once a week or two.  So this is a cost since I probably use 6 or 7 gallons a year of tks fluid just exercising the system.  No big deal.

Side benefit - you never get chipped paint on your leading edges.

[StevenL757]

10 hours ago, toto said:

I believe you can buy a FIKI install, which is about $10k more than the non-FIKI setup. 

ETA: They list the K model but not the J model in the FIKI brochure, so I dunno. 

https://www.cav-systems.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/TKS-Mooney-M20-FIKI-Specification-2019-2.pdf

Unfortunately, the J model is not eligible for a known-ice certification…period.

[toto]

3 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Unfortunately, the J model is not eligible for a known-ice certification…period.

Yeah, that was what I guessed from their brochures, since the K was in the FIKI brochure but the J was only in the non-FIKI list. 

I presume there’s no technical reason it couldn’t be done, but more likely a limited market?

[alextstone]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

FIKI Requirement is dual alternators, not dual batteries. I had a '97 FIKI Encore with one battery and dual alternators. I heard that they don't do the non-FIKI installs anymore but their website still shows a brochure. I believe also that FIKI has to be a 28 volt aircraft which the Original post isn't, it's a 1981. @CAV Ice will know for sure.

Thanks for the clarification.

[StevenL757]

14 minutes ago, toto said:

Yeah, that was what I guessed from their brochures, since the K was in the FIKI brochure but the J was only in the non-FIKI list. 

I presume there’s no technical reason it couldn’t be done, but more likely a limited market?

Like many things folks would aspire to do with their airplanes, it may be technically possible, but would be far too cost-prohibitive as well as stick you with a large negative ROI.  One could pay the $70k+ price to equip an aircraft with the full system, but valuation tools have historically, and rarely, given above about $25k valuation for the TKS option when people go to sell their airplane.

As @alextstonepointed out, the OP is better-off getting into a different airplane with TKS already installed,

[toto]

15 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Like many things folks would aspire to do with their airplanes, it may be technically possible, but would be far too cost-prohibitive as well as stick you with a large negative ROI.  One could pay the $70k+ price to equip an aircraft with the full system, but valuation tools have historically, and rarely, given above about $25k valuation for the TKS option when people go to sell their airplane.

As @alextstonepointed out, the OP is better-off getting into a different airplane with TKS already installed,

I know that I'm in the minority on MS in this regard, but I think that finding/buying a good airplane is hard, and the idea of selling a great plane to get an unknown one with an additional feature is really unattractive to me.  I'd argue that adding FIKI provides as much utility as many similarly-priced avionics upgrades.

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, toto said:

I know that I'm in the minority on MS in this regard, but I think that finding/buying a good airplane is hard, and the idea of selling a great plane to get an unknown one with an additional feature is really unattractive to me.  I'd argue that adding FIKI provides as much utility as many similarly-priced avionics upgrades.

When I bought this rocket over ten years ago - tks was a primary shopping feature and I was flexible as to which Mooney model specifically.  I was leaning toward turbo of some kind though since I do think that excess power to get out of ice is as important as the tks to give you 3 minutes to not panic while you are deciding how to get out of the ice.  A tks ovation or a missile would have been fine.

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, toto said:

I'd argue that adding FIKI provides as much utility as many similarly-priced avionics upgrades.

I agree, and to clarify my earlier point, I personally would spend the money on the full system for my Ovation if it didn't have it already, and would likely ignore the loss I'd take if/when I go to sell the airplane.  When I bought my first Ovation, the presence of TKS was one of the top two reasons I decided to purchase the airplane.

[Ibra]

4 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Like many things folks would aspire to do with their airplanes, it may be technically possible, but would be far too cost-prohibitive as well as stick you with a large negative ROI.  One could pay the $70k+ price to equip an aircraft with the full system, but valuation tools have historically, and rarely, given above about $25k valuation for the TKS option when people go to sell their airplane.

I guess the old problem: an off mark aircraft will get pulled back to Vref averages (one should be happy to take the hit)

How much speed delta between clean Ovation and de-iced Ovation?  

[CAV Ice]

14 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

FIKI Requirement is dual alternators, not dual batteries. I had a '97 FIKI Encore with one battery and dual alternators. I heard that they don't do the non-FIKI installs anymore but their website still shows a brochure. I believe also that FIKI has to be a 28 volt aircraft which the Original post isn't, it's a 1981. @CAV Ice will know for sure.

We do provide a no-hazard system for the M20J, both 14V and 28V.  FIKI is only an available on M20K, M20M, M20R, M20S and M20TN.

[Mufflerbearing]

The speed differential in the O between non FIKI and a FIKI plane is roughly 8kts penalty.  I love it, need it and use it.  It was one huge defining feature I looked for in a plane.  My wife loves the security it brings more than a parachute would.

I do have a FIKI equipped Screaming Eagle that is amazing.  It is a unicorn plane with the addition of the new 2500 Evolution Pro series and dual waas 430's.  I may be willing to sell it for the right price which I feel is around $580,000.  That is what it is worth to me.

[exM20K]

6 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Once maybe 5 years ago a titanium wing stall strip fell off and it was very expensive to get another - and no I know how to prevent that (wiggle the stall strips now and then to see if they are loose - the glue dries up in time).

...and carry speed tape in the plane to secure if loose and away from home.

-dan

[exM20K]

14 minutes ago, CAV Ice said:

We do provide a no-hazard system for the M20J, both 14V and 28V.  FIKI is only an available on M20K, M20M, M20R, M20S and M20TN.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe only the 28V M20K is eligible for FIKI.  I had a no-hazard system installed in the late 90's on my 231, and IIRC, it was about $38,000 then, so the current price is not too far off the inflation rate adjusted price I paid., which in aviation, is astounding.

-dan

[exM20K]

9 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said:

The speed differential in the O between non FIKI and a FIKI plane is roughly 8kts penalty.

Did you mean the difference between a TKS and clean wing plane?  There should be no difference between FIKI and no hazard with respect airspeed loss.

-dan

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, exM20K said:

...and carry speed tape in the plane to secure if loose and away from home.

-dan

Good plan!

Well the one I lost - I was blissfully unaware there was a problem until there was! It fell off in flight when I was at 17000 over Lake Michigan.  I am sure it went kerplunk and sunk to the bottom a very expensive little piece of Ti.  I did then find another was was slightly loose and now I know the routine.  These things are something like 2500 or 3k I forget but also hard to source.  That time I was without for several months.  

Last summer I noticed on eBay someone was selling a munched wing that had some tks panels on it and what looked like a good stall strip - so I emailed and offered $200 for it and he took it!  So I got that in the hangar...