Need advice / sharing my concerns with someone

[redbaron1982]

I've purchased on 12/20 a Mooney M20J from a fellow member of this forum, up to the point of closing, everything went really smooth. I got a MSC near the home airport of the aircraft, they performed a pre buy that found nothing too big, and the, at that moment, owner, agree to reduce the price based on all the findings.

After I closed, two things happened:

1. I cannot get the onwer to sign the form required by the state of Texas to not pay sale taxes, as this was a ocassional sale. It's being already 15 days (I know, we have the holidays in the middle) but hey, response was super fast before closing, and now signing a paper is taking for ever.
2. As the annual was expiring on February, I talked with the MSC so they would continue the prebuy inspection into an annual inspection, so I didn't have to grund the aircraft again one month after getting it. They completed the annual and the new report came with a new item:
   
   Lower cap on RH wing stub spar assembly inside inspection panel area directly behind RH
   gear wheel well has heavy intergranualar defoliation corrosion. Metal has flaked away. Need to
   evaluate and determine repair. Sent info/report to Mooney -- waiting for reply.
   Unable to estimate repairs at this time.

Of course I already talked with the MSC and asked how come that they didn't find this on the prebuy, he said that is not something common for a prebuy inspection, but anyway, I don't like that answer. The same MSC that 20 days ago made a prebuy report without any indication of corrosion at all, now it came with this. 

There are other, minor items, that showed up in the annual and not the prebuy, such as the compass light not working. That's not a huge concern, but hey, again, how it comes that they haven't checked that the lights were working? Same with the light indicating that the speed break is deployed.

I've asked for pictures of the corrosion (yesterday morning) and I'm still waiting on it. And still waiting to hear from the MSC when they get the response from Mooney.

Again, I don't know if there is any advice, but I wanted to share this with someone as I'm quite stressed out by the situation of the owner not signing a paper worth 12kUSD in tax exemption, and now, 15 days after the purchase, finding that there is corrosion in the wing spar, that could end up on having to scrap the airplane.

Edited January 10, 2022 by redbaron1982

[cbarry]

As bad as it seems, the one silver lining in the black cloud that is sitting over your situation is that at least we’re not reading about the cause of an inflight breakup being corrosion and you’re no longer here.  Planes and parts are replaceable.

[redbaron1982]

9 minutes ago, cbarry said:

As bad as it seems, the one silver lining in the black cloud that is sitting over your situation is that at least we’re not reading about the cause of an inflight breakup being corrosion and you’re no longer here.  Planes and parts are replaceable.

I get that, of course, but again, why do I pay for a prebuy inspection on a MSC for them not to realize that the compass light is not working or that there is corrosion on the airplane?

I mean, isn't a prebuy a mechanism of not getting burnt when buying an aircraft?

[201Steve]

Wow. Major bummer. I would say, you should have figured the signature part out before the deal was done. I’ll pay you once you sign this. Seems odd the seller would have anything to do with taxation in this scenario but I guess every state has its own deal. 
 

very disappoint they found the corrosion after purchase. That’s like the main thing of a pre buy. Find the corrosion, if it exists. 

[redbaron1982]

2 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

very disappoint they found the corrosion after purchase. That’s like the main thing of a pre buy. Find the corrosion, if it exists. 

 

That's exactly my point, is there any chance of starting some legal actions agains the MSC? Does anyone had experience with a situation like this, where a prebuy turns out ok, and 10 days after, the same MSC, find corrosion (heavy, meaning intergranular) on an annual?

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I get that, of course, but again, why do I pay for a prebuy inspection on a MSC for them not to realize that the compass light is not working or that there is corrosion on the airplane?

I mean, isn't a prebuy a mechanism of not getting burnt when buying an aircraft?

A prebuy is a risk reducer, but the sort of pre-buy inspection that would be guaranteed to catch anything that could possibly be wrong is prohibitively expensive and nobody would pay for one.

As you've discovered, annual inspections are usually more thorough than a pre-buy, which is why pre-buys often get turned into annuals once an agreement has been reached.

There is no guaranteed to way that I'm aware of to keep from getting burned on any purchase, of just about anything. 

That said, I think everyone would agree that this is an unfortunate situation, but also one that others have lived through and came out the other side with a decent airplane.   It's not out of order to get a 2nd opinion on the repair, either.   There was an MSer who bought a Mooney and had nearly the same thing happen, with the shop giving a repair estimate of $40k.   He wound up flying it to another shop where it was properly repaired for a fraction of that.   YMMV, every situation is different, but this may yet turn out to not be as bad as you think.

 

 

[Guest]

I have argued for years that a PPI should be more thorough than an Annual Inspection.  Every access panel with screws should be opened for inspection.  
I’d be having a frank discussion with the shop asking them how they’d like to proceed.  You’ll likely need the services of a lawyer before this is over.

Clarence

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

I've purchased on 12/20 a Mooney M20J from a fellow member of this forum, up to the point of closing, everything went really smooth. I got a MSC near the home airport of the aircraft, they performed a pre buy that found nothing too big, and the, at that moment, owner, agree to reduce the price based on all the findings.

After I closed, two things happened:

1. I cannot get the onwer to sign the form required by the state of Texas to not pay sale taxes, as this was a ocassional sale. It's being already 15 days (I know, we have the holidays in the middle) but hey, response was super fast before closing, and now signing a paper is taking for ever.
2. As the annual was expiring on February, I talked with the MSC so they would continue the prebuy inspection into an annual inspection, so I didn't have to grund the aircraft again one month after getting it. They completed the annual and the new report came with a new item:
   
   Lower cap on RH wing stub spar assembly inside inspection panel area directly behind RH
   gear wheel well has heavy intergranualar defoliation corrosion. Metal has flaked away. Need to
   evaluate and determine repair. Sent info/report to Mooney -- waiting for reply.
   Unable to estimate repairs at this time.

Of course I already talked with the MSC (FlightLevel at Norwood) and asked how come that they didn't find this on the prebuy, he said that is not something common for a prebuy inspection, but anyway, I don't like that answer. The same MSC that 20 days ago made a prebuy report without any indication of corrosion at all, now it came with this. 

There are other, minor items, that showed up in the annual and not the prebuy, such as the compass light not working. That's not a huge concern, but hey, again, how it comes that they haven't checked that the lights were working? Same with the light indicating that the speed break is deployed.

I've asked for pictures of the corrosion (yesterday morning) and I'm still waiting on it. And still waiting to hear from the MSC when they get the response from Mooney.

Again, I don't know if there is any advice, but I wanted to share this with someone as I'm quite stressed out by the situation of the owner not signing a paper worth 12kUSD in tax exemption, and now, 15 days after the purchase, finding that there is corrosion in the wing spar, that could end up on having to scrap the airplane.

You mention that the MSC is FlightLevel at Norwood.near the owner's home base.  When I look that up it appears to be in Massachusetts.  Are you buying a Mooney in Massachusetts or in Texas?  Is the "sale and purchase" taking place in Massachusetts and therefore taxable in Massachusetts?   The "Occasional Sale" Tax Exemption is for a "sale and purchase" in Texas.  If the owner is in Mass. and it is registered in Mass. and the plane is physically in Mass. then you are buying it in Mass. and paying Mass. Sales Tax.  There is no "Occasional Sale" in Texas.  Can you clarify?

To your question on issues found after a "Pre-buy":  A Pre-Buy is not an Annual.  Generally you get what you pay for in a Pre-buy.  More invasive inspection requires more shop hours which requires a higher price for the Pre-Buy.  But a good pre-buy should include opening inspection panels to look for corrosion.  Many times the first annual after a purchase will be expensive.  Here was a comment in 2012 that the buyer of a M20C had $4,000 in repairs after a Don Maxwell "Pre-buy" which should have been the gold standard of pre-buys.  https://mooneyspace.com/topic/8014-how-often-does-a-pre-buy-fail-to-catch-something-major/#:~:text=BigTex,21 Model%3A M20C  Also there was a thread this year from a buyer of a Rocket that posted here last April that the "pre-buy went well".  Then last month he was trying to sell it (actually a failed sale) and admitted in a heated post that his first Annual cost $10,000. 

This corrosion sounds unfortunate.  I cant imagine that it all occurred since the last Annual - it must have been over a long time.  Did FlightLevel at Norwood perform the last Annual?  Corrosion is something that the pre-buy should have caught if you paid for them to open all the inspection panels.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[redbaron1982]

2 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

You mention that the MSC is FlightLevel at Norwood.  When I look that up it appears to be in Massachusetts.  Are you buying a Mooney in Massachusetts or in Texas?  Is the "sale and purchase" taking place in Massachusetts and therefore taxable in Massachusetts?   The "Occasional Sale" Tax Exemption is for a "sale and purchase" in Texas.  Can you clarify?

To your question on issues found after a "Pre-buy":  A Pre-Buy is not an Annual.  Generally you get what you pay for in a Pre-buy.  More invasive inspection requires more shop hours which requires a higher price for the Pre-Buy.  But a good pre-buy should include opening inspection panels to look for corrosion.  Many times the first annual after a purchase will be expensive.  Here was a comment in 2012 that the buyer of a M20C had $4,000 in repairs after a Don Maxwell "Pre-buy" which should have been the gold standard of pre-buys.  https://mooneyspace.com/topic/8014-how-often-does-a-pre-buy-fail-to-catch-something-major/#:~:text=BigTex,21 Model%3A M20C  Also there was a thread this year from a buyer of a Rocket that posted here last April that the "pre-buy went well".  Then last month he was trying to sell it (actually a failed sale) and admitted in a heated post that his first Annual cost $10,000. 

This corrosion sounds unfortunate.  I cant imagine that it all occurred since the last Annual - it must have been over a long time.  Did FlightLevel at Norwood perform the last Annual?  Corrosion is something that the pre-buy should have caught if you paid for them to open all the inspection panels.

 

 

I'm from Texas and the seller is from New Hampshire, that's why the pre buy and annual were done there. 

NH has no sale tax and Texas has with the exemption of occasional sales, that requires a form filled by the seller declaring that he is not in the business of selling and is just an occasional sale. 

Regarding the pre buy, I told them from day zero that the pre buy would got into an annual if I close the deal. They quote me 17hs for the pre buy part and the 17hs to complete annual. 

They never asked me if I wanted them to check for corrosion and I never specified it. For me it was obvious that whey would look for corrosion. My mistake. Again, I was going to do both anyway so I was not trying to save money. 

The last annual was not done by this MSC. I chose this place first because it is an official MSC and second because it was not the regular shop that maintained the aircraft. 

 

[1980Mooney]

3 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I'm from Texas and the seller is from New Hampshire, that's why the pre buy and annual were done there. 

NH has no sale tax and Texas has with the exemption of occasional sales, that requires a form filled by the seller declaring that he is not in the business of selling and is just an occasional sale. 

Regarding the pre buy, I told them from day zero that the pre buy would got into an annual if I close the deal. They quote me 17hs for the pre buy part and the 17hs to complete annual. 

They never asked me if I wanted them to check for corrosion and I never specified it. For me it was obvious that whey would look for corrosion. My mistake. Again, I was going to do both anyway so I was not trying to save money. 

The last annual was not done by this MSC. I chose this place first because it is an official MSC and second because it was not the regular shop that maintained the aircraft. 

 

17 hours should have paid for a thorough pre buy inspection by the MSC - plenty of hours to open everything.. The MSC should know to look for corrosion without being told.

Edited January 8, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[MikeOH]

Damn!  This is a NIGHTMARE scenario.  I feel terrible for you.

My opinion is that pre-buys are a crap shoot.  The 'experts' here will condemn anyone that fails to get a pre-buy; then those same 'experts have zero problem telling you after you DO get a pre-buy that you can't expect the shop to find this stuff!  WTF???

I paid for a pre-buy at a MSC, but frankly, I suspect I just got lucky.  Honestly, the fact I bought a plane that was consistently flown by the same owner with his family on-board for the previous 13 years had more to do with the plane being in great condition than anything else.

Good luck!

[aggiepilot04]

I think MSCs carry insurance for this situation. See if they're willing to take any responsibility. I wouldn't get worked up about the compass light though...I'm not sure any prebuy would catch that.

[redbaron1982]

3 minutes ago, aggiepilot04 said:

I think MSCs carry insurance for this situation. See if they're willing to take any responsibility. I wouldn't get worked up about the compass light though...I'm not sure any prebuy would catch that.

Yeah, I am not concerned about the compass light, not a big item. My only concern is the corrosion...

[carusoam]

kind of a rock and a hard place…

1) A pre-buy has no standards… it is whatever you ask for…

2) typically, a pre buy turning into an annual… occurs within days of each other… many of the steps of one are the same as the other…

3) Often pre-buys are more broad and cover many things that are not air worthiness issues… as the payer, you define this…

4) As part of your sales agreement, did you specify that the owner of the plane pays for all airworthiness issues found?  This is the basis of the pre-buy…. Which does include some light bulbs…

5) There is a lot of weirdness going on here…. Pull out the documents and get to work with the all the parties…

6) finding an AW issue between the PPI and the annual is embarrassing for the people doing this service…

7) What kind of PPI did you ask for?

I hope you asked for things in a clear and written format…  or at least understand what they did for you…

I hope your MSC understands what you asked for…

Pp thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[redbaron1982]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

kind of a rock and a hard place…

1) A pre-buy has no standards… it is whatever you ask for…

2) typically, a pre buy turning into an annual… occurs within days of each other… many of the steps of one are the same as the other…

3) Often pre-buys are more broad and cover many things that are not air worthiness issues… as the payer, you define this…

4) As part of your sales agreement, did you specify that the owner of the plane pays for all airworthiness issues found?  This is the basis of the pre-buy…. Which does include some light bulbs…

5) There is a lot of weirdness going on here…. Pull out the documents and get to work with the all the parties…

6) finding an AW issue between the PPI and the annual is embarrassing for the people doing this service…

7) What kind of PPI did you ask for?

I hope you asked for things in a clear and written format…  or at least understand what they did for you…

I hope your MSC understands what you asked for…

Pp thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

4) yes and all the aw issues, and some optionals, where deducted from the price. The seller was very understanding. 

7) As I mentioned, I didn't ask for anything specific. This is my first aircraft and I thought an ppi was a ppi. They charged me 17 hours for the pre buy, what I think should be enough to open the inspection panels and look for corrosion. But again, nothing in written here. 

[1980Mooney]

T

10 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Damn!  This is a NIGHTMARE scenario.  I feel terrible for you.

My opinion is that pre-buys are a crap shoot.  The 'experts' here will condemn anyone that fails to get a pre-buy; then those same 'experts have zero problem telling you after you DO get a pre-buy that you can't expect the shop to find this stuff!  WTF???

I paid for a pre-buy at a MSC, but frankly, I suspect I just got lucky.  Honestly, the fact I bought a plane that was consistently flown by the same owner with his family on-board for the previous 13 years had more to do with the plane being in great condition than anything else.

Good luck!

 

7 minutes ago, aggiepilot04 said:

I think MSCs carry insurance for this situation. See if they're willing to take any responsibility. I wouldn't get worked up about the compass light though...I'm not sure any prebuy would catch that.

 

30 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I have argued for years that a PPI should be more thorough than an Annual Inspection.  Every access panel with screws should be opened for inspection.  
I’d be having a frank discussion with the shop asking them how they’d like to proceed.  You’ll likely need the services of a lawyer before this is over.

Clarence

This does sound like a nightmare now.  The MSC does not sound competent. Heavy defoliating flaking corrosion sounds like it is easily visible if they actually looked.   But since they have found corrosion on a spar cap and have already flagged it as serious and involved Mooney Int'l Corp the plane is no longer Airworthy.  And it is seems unlikely that you will be able to get a Ferry Permit from the FAA to move it to another A&P shop. 

I agree with Clarence that a lawyer will need to get involved probably sooner than later.

[aggiepilot04]

I'm not in a position to give legal advice, but I wouldn't jump into litigation before you know for sure that they're denying responsibility. Anecdotally, only the attorneys have won in the situations that I have detailed knowledge of. Ask the question directly and frankly, then decide how to proceed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[skydvrboy]

As for the prebuy, corrosion is the number one thing that should be checked out.  Any MSC should know that and have checked for it.  I'd ask them how THEY intend to repair the corrosion that THEY missed on inspection. That is entirely inexusable. 

As for the lights that are out, BFD!  You would have spent more paying for them to inspect every little minor thing than it will cost to have them replaced/repaired.  I'm not an IA, but I don't even think these bulbs being out is an airworthiness item (I could be wrong on the speed brake light), but you most likely can defer these items and replace them yourself.  Remember, an annual inspection is not an open checkbook for the MSC to repair every little thing they find wrong.

I won't comment on the tax stuff, though I see no reason why he wouldn't get it done.  I'd just call him every day until he either signs it or changes his phone number. If that doesn't work, threaten to rat him out on MooneySpace! 

[1980Mooney]

3 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

4) yes and all the aw issues, and some optionals, where deducted from the price. The seller was very understanding. 

7) As I mentioned, I didn't ask for anything specific. This is my first aircraft and I thought an ppi was a ppi. They charged me 17 hours for the pre buy, what I think should be enough to open the inspection panels and look for corrosion. But again, nothing in written here. 

You need to look at your Purchase Contract carefully.  Does it say that 1) all Airworthiness Issues found before the sale will be repaired by the Seller or does it say 2) The Seller certifies that the plane is Airworthy at the time of sale.

If it is the first it means on the day of the sale (after the Pre-buy) that all identified Airworthiness issues had been addressed by the Seller.  It was only after title had passed to you that an Airworthiness Issue was found. Anything found after sale is your cost.

If it is the second then the Seller is on the hook because he sold you a plane that has Airworthiness Issues (i.e. Not Airworthy).  There are cases on line that tell Sellers to never agree to this language in a sale for this very reason

[corn_flake]

I feel terrible for you.  Truly. 

After seeing how A&Ps conduct PPI, I would rather inspect the plane my self if I ever buy another Mooney.  I, along with many owners on this board probably know more about common Mooney issues than most A&Ps.  With that said, I would take it up with the shop on the major corrosion issue missed in the PPI.  Keep in mind that aluminum is cheap.  Majority of the cost in airframe repair goes to A&P's time.  While shop may charge you $150/hour shop rate, they are paying the A&P $50/hour at best.  They can easily foot half of the repair bill without paying a dime.   If they are using trainees with A&P supervision, they will probably still make money in the deal. 

I wish you the best.     

[ArtVandelay]

For my prebuy I told him exactly what to check, including removing interior necessary to inspect spar and steel roll cage for corrosion under the windows and removing inspection plates necessary to inspect the spars.
I told them to not bother engine testing(engine was a runout), avionics, light bulbs,
As mentioned there is no standard for prebuys.

[1980Mooney]

14 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

As for the prebuy, corrosion is the number one thing that should be checked out.  Any MSC should know that and have checked for it.  I'd ask them how THEY intend to repair the corrosion that THEY missed on inspection. That is entirely inexusable. 

What A&P or MSC gives a guarantee of their services to find issues on a pre-buy? - NONE

Also since based on your description this sounds like this corrosion has been going on for more than a year that the A&P that conducted that last Annual should have caught it and it should be noted in the logs. - Wont the MSC argue this also?

 At most they might refund the Pre-buy expense but they will say the Seller needs to pay for repairs.  Both parties might take responsibility as @aggiepilot04 suggests but the odds don't seem good.

Edited January 8, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[ArtVandelay]

What A&P or MSC gives a guarantee of their services to find issues on a pre-buy? - NONE
 At most they might refund the Pre-buy expense but they will say the Seller needs to pay for repairs.  Both parties might take responsibility as [mention=12060]aggiepilot04[/mention] suggests but the odds don't seem good.

I guess it depends on the report, if they said they inspected the spar for corrosion…then clearly that’s a lie.

If you left it open ended “gimme a prebuy” and they never mentioned inspecting the spar…you’re out of luck.

[1980Mooney]

14 minutes ago, corn_flake said:

I feel terrible for you.  Truly. 

After seeing how A&Ps conduct PPI, I would rather inspect the plane my self if I ever buy another Mooney.  I, along with many owners on this board probably know more about common Mooney issues than most A&Ps.  With that said, I would take it up with the shop on the major corrosion issue missed in the PPI.  Keep in mind that aluminum is cheap.  Majority of the cost in airframe repair goes to A&P's time.  While shop may charge you $150/hour shop rate, they are paying the A&P $50/hour at best.  They can easily foot half of the repair bill without paying a dime.   If they are using trainees with A&P supervision, they will probably still make money in the deal. 

I wish you the best.     

 

12 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

For my prebuy I told him exactly what to check, including removing interior necessary to inspect spar and steel roll cage for corrosion under the windows and removing inspection plates necessary to inspect the spars.
I told them to not bother engine testing(engine was a runout), avionics, light bulbs,
As mentioned there is no standard for prebuys.

Agreed.  Although it was 23 years ago I traveled to the be present at the Pre-buy which was hundreds of miles away from my home base so that I could witness first hand for these reasons.  I understand than not everyone has the time to do that.

[MikeOH]

Ah, yes.  Just what I thought....a first time buyer, not an expert on Mooneys, pays to have an 'expert' examine the plane.  After the fact, he's told, by internet cognoscenti that, in effect, it's his fault for not telling the 'expert' what to look for????

GMAFB!

Just don't wonder why GA keeps shrinking and doesn't attract new pilots.  We are our own worst enemy, I'm afraid.