Overhead vent upgrade project

[apriav]

Put me on the list for some.

[jetdriven]

On 12/29/2021 at 3:36 PM, M20F-1968 said:

You have done good work.  I might adjust the back of your form to make the part angled, and also not hang down so much.  

I made several interior parts when I did my F.  I retrofitted an Ovation interior which is made from fiberglass.  You can easily do hand lay-ups of fiberglass and you will not need to be as fussy with the mold.  Fiberglass can be sanded as needed, re-glassed if required, and worked to the finished size.  You should use a flame retardant resin when you make your final parts.  Sign-off for me was no problem as I had a DER to do those sorts of things.  This should be a minor modification however.

John Breda

I’ve also procured an ovation  interior for my plane I’m curious how you install it. Especially where you section that because that Plane is longer. Please get in touch again. Byron

[Utah20Gflyer]

Here is the current prototype set in place.  It sits lower than the previous version but don't think it will be in the way.   Seems to be just slightly lower than where the plastic headliner will sit that covers the center Frame tube. 

 

[N9405V]

Here is the current prototype set in place.  It sits lower than the previous version but don't think it will be in the way.   Seems to be just slightly lower than where the plastic headliner will sit that covers the center Frame tube. 
 

How are you planning to attach it to the plenum?


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[Utah20Gflyer]

18 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I’ve also procured an ovation  interior for my plane I’m curious how you install it. Especially where you section that because that Plane is longer. Please get in touch again. Byron

I don't know exactly how the install will go yet but plan to do that later this week.  Will likely require a little trimming here and there.  The current plan is to Screw the vent to the plenum using #4 sheet metal screws and some sort of seal material between the vent and the plenum. I'll post pics and details when I do it.  

[Utah20Gflyer]

Here are 3 of the 4 vents roughed in.  Unfortunately I ran out of material and have to wait until more shows up tomorrow to complete the 4th.  IA and I agreed on a plan of #4 sheet metal screws for install.  I have drilled all the holes for the adapters I have   Now I am going to paint the adapters a grey color, countersink the screw holes and should be ready for final install next week.  They look like they will be really functional, sitting in the chair I can point the vent at my waist or the top of my head.  Exactly what I wanted.  

[MikeOH]

Truly, well done!

[N9405V]

Those look great


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[AerostarDriver]

I will happily take a set, my vents suck.

[Mkruger2021]

Me like! great job....

Ill take some as well if your so inclined....

[Utah20Gflyer]

I'm obviously on the slow path to getting my annual done, but I had to send a digital fuel gauge back to Canada to get fixed so the pressure is off for another week or two plus work has been kicking my butt lately.  I did complete the 4th vent adapter and paint all of them and then swung by the shop today and did the actual install.  See the included picture.  Now I need to finish the repairs for the headliner and get that installed. Other than calibrating the CIES fuel senders that's all that left to wrap up the annual. 

For those wanting vent adapters I am considering producing them for sale. I purchased a 3d printer and am working through the learning curve to see if that may be an option for producing them in a time efficient manner.   I'll include a picture with the headliner in when I get that done and give a pirep when I get it in the air. 

 

[carusoam]

If you want a reference for a commercial thermoformer…

You might try vantage plane plastics…

They are the supplier for after market Mooney interior parts…

They are easy to contact if your 3D printing does not go as planned…

Expect… Adding eye ball vents to older Mooney will be a popular want to have kind of thing…  being able to stop the flow of cold air in the winter is really nice…

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyJohn]

Great project, I would love a set of four adaptors. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

This is a side note to the original project but just 3d printed my first Mooney part.  The vent adapters are a bit advanced as I am just learning CAD, CAM as well as all the variables in materials and 3d printer settings.  I needed two vent handles, one for the center console vent and one of the vents under the console at your knee.   They are a pretty simple design so I figured I would start with them.  This one is just a prototype made from PLA which is not a material I would make a real handle from but I'm going to take this one and check it for fit and function and if everything checks out I will work on making one out of PC-ABS FR (fire resistant plastic).  

[carusoam]

Heater related parts get to see pretty height temps in some cases…

Ross has done a great job of collecting air temps coming out of his M20F’s heat system…

Some days… it can be closer to boiling water temps…

Just a data point for consideration…

-a-

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Heater related parts get to see pretty height temps in some cases…

Ross has done a great job of collecting air temps coming out of his M20F’s heat system…

Some days… it can be closer to boiling water temps…

Just a data point for consideration…

-a-

Thanks for the heads up.  PC-ABS has a glass transition temperature of 257 degrees putting it about 25 percent over the boiling point of water.  Hopefully between having a buffer and not being in the direct flow of the air I'm thinking it should hold up.   It looks like the current handle I have is made of abs plastic so should be slightly better.  That is the hope anyway.   The prototype is made of PLA which has a glass transition temp of around 150 degrees which is not going to cut it, but it's cheap and easy to print which is why Im using it for fit/function testing.  

Quite a lot of my research so far has gone into learning about the available materials and processes.  A lot of the more common materials used in 3d printing are unfortunately not adequate for what I'm trying to accomplish but there are a few with good potential.  It comes down to finding materials that are relatively easy to print, strong and fire resistant.   Thanks again for the input.  

[carusoam]

Flame retardation for polymers is typically an added chemical package done at the same time pigments and fillers get added….

ABS makes a good finished product… as it resists impact pretty well… it is also what most Mooney interiors are using, if they have the thin thermoformed plastic panels… the obvious sign they’re ABS… the styrene (S) part yellows with age…

So… only the ABS that got the flame retardants is going to resist the flames…

If you have thoughts about flame testing materials…. There is a test for that… they make a shape similar to a coffee stirrer and light the end on fire… then observe… if the part melts, drips, and pools a liquid flaming pond…. From dripping flaming drops… that is bad….

If it burns slowly without turning into a River of flame… that is much better.

Flame tests are defined better by UL94 (fuzzy memory, but a lab does the official testing, there is a set of procedures for testing plastic parts)

A quick search of UL94 Flame Test reveals a lot of details…

 

It is pretty easy to get a feeling for flammability if you have a fireplace…

 

Without smoking inside the plane… it is pretty difficult to get it to light on fire…

Crashes are a totally different topic, but the rate of burn of the plastic interiors doesn’t merit a mention compared to the other stuff….

 

PP thoughts only, not a fireman…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[N9405V]

If your going to try and print abs with a Ender 3 think about getting an enclosure, a glass (non-magnetic) print bed and a boat load of patience. I’ve tried printing abs and I just can’t get it dialed in.


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[Utah20Gflyer]

9 hours ago, N9405V said:

If your going to try and print abs with a Ender 3 think about getting an enclosure, a glass (non-magnetic) print bed and a boat load of patience. I’ve tried printing abs and I just can’t get it dialed in.


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It's an ender 5 pro but a good guess as they are very similar. I'm looking into an enclosure but following the trend for me in 3d printing everything is complicated.  The lower end printers aren't designed to handle operating in a heated area so I need to heat the chamber while also providing cooling to certain components.  Also ABS off gasses some stuff I don't want to be breathing so I have to figure out a system to mitigate that.  I could buy a printer that does all of this out of the box for 10k to 30k but that seems a little much to Satisfy my desire to tinker at the moment.  I'm may get one eventually as it would be cool to be able to do PEEK, PEKK, ULTEM, etc.  but That's going to be down the road a ways.  For the the me being I think I'll put about 1k into it and see how things go.   

[Utah20Gflyer]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Flame retardation for polymers is typically an added chemical package done at the same time pigments and fillers get added….

ABS makes a good finished product… as it resists impact pretty well… it is also what most Mooney interiors are using, if they have the thin thermoformed plastic panels… the obvious sign they’re ABS… the styrene (S) part yellows with age…

So… only the ABS that got the flame retardants is going to resist the flames…

If you have thoughts about flame testing materials…. There is a test for that… they make a shape similar to a coffee stirrer and light the end on fire… then observe… if the part melts, drips, and pools a liquid flaming pond…. From dripping flaming drops… that is bad….

If it burns slowly without turning into a River of flame… that is much better.

Flame tests are defined better by UL94 (fuzzy memory, but a lab does the official testing, there is a set of procedures for testing plastic parts)

A quick search of UL94 Flame Test reveals a lot of details…

 

It is pretty easy to get a feeling for flammability if you have a fireplace…

 

Without smoking inside the plane… it is pretty difficult to get it to light on fire…

Crashes are a totally different topic, but the rate of burn of the plastic interiors doesn’t merit a mention compared to the other stuff….

 

PP thoughts only, not a fireman…

Best regards,

-a-

 

I believe the material I'm looking at has a UL94 rating of V0, which I think should be adequate.  Still learning and researching though, lots to learn!  Private pilot only not an engineer....

[N9405V]

I ordered some PLA-Pro and a glass filled pla from this company, https://www.3dfuel.com. So far I really like the filaments and their customer support has been really responsive.


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[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

2 hours ago, N9405V said:

I ordered some PLA-Pro and a glass filled pla from this company, https://www.3dfuel.com. So far I really like the filaments and their customer support has been really responsive.

I recommend these guys:  https://www.3dxtech.com/  I have worked with them for a number of years, and they produce the highest quality and some of the most unique filament, including PEEK, PEKK, etc.  Contact me if you plan to buy a +300C printer.  I can guide you.

You do not need an enclosure to print ABS.  Other settings in your slicer program should resolve any issues.  PC warps much more and will be much harder to print, BTW.

Glass transition temperatures are a good gauge on which to compare materials.  They are not a good way to judge how well a material will hold up to lesser temperatures, however.  PLA will soften too much at much lower temperatures.

Edited January 24, 2022 by AH-1 Cobra Pilot

[Utah20Gflyer]

Here is the vent lever prototype in place.  I think it turned out pretty nice.  

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

On 1/1/2022 at 10:49 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

Here is version 2.0, I think this one will fit the mission well. You can point it almost straight down or to within maybe 20 degrees of the ceiling.  Also shown left to right is the original vent, Version 1 and then Version 2. 

I presume these are the vents you purchased?  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/eyeballswivelvent.php?clickkey=28429

What is the angle between the flange and your table?  30º?  40º?  What is the slope of the plastic to the left of the flange in the picture?

How tall is your molded part on the right?

Were all of the openings previously covered by this the same orientation?  (I can see only two in the pictures you provided.)

Edited January 26, 2022 by AH-1 Cobra Pilot

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:12 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

Here is the vent lever prototype in place.  I think it turned out pretty nice.  

That looks great!  Depending on the material you use, the screw threads may not last as long as you would like.  That is why most similar applications use an insert such as this:

Print it with the hole no more than 0.001" larger than the insert, and with a hole for the set screw.  Then use heat, such as a soldering iron, to push/melt the insert into place.

Edited January 26, 2022 by AH-1 Cobra Pilot