Make and Model for Insurance purposes

[Parker_Woodruff]

29 minutes ago, 201er said:

Then why do they ask about make/model time?

What type of experience hours makes a big impact on insurance rate for Mooney pilots?

PS Your website isn't loading.

It still matters - if no MM time, then pilot needs a checkout.  There's one rare case where the carrier rates heavily toward MM.  In another case, we can get really high liability limits if the pilot has strong MM time.

500 total time basically opens up every carrier for quoting...so there's a lot of rate compression once pilots reach that level of experience.

Thanks for the note on the website.

[GeeBee]

I once testified in a huge Federal lawsuit after the crash of a Bellanca 17-31. The short story. The insurance company that insured the instructor was trying to weasel on "make and model" between a 17-30, 17-30A and 17-31A. The insurance company was trying to say -30 and -30A time did not count and thus no coverage. The jury in Federal District Court in SFO saw it differently, the insurance company ultimately paid. There are easier ways to deal with the problem than Federal Court, but the precedent is there.

 

[Will.iam]

When I bought my 252 I had 0 Mooney time but thousands of hours jet time. Insurance companies were all over the place one wanted 20 hours, another wanted 10 hours, another wanted 2 hours and one would do it for 0 hours but was $500 more expensive. I went with the 2 hours as they were the cheapest and I needed to ferry they plane home anyway, and transition training is a smart thing to do. After the ferry flight I also had another Mooney instructor that lives on our air park go up for a ride with me to give me some tips and techniques. Wound up with double the min requirement. 

[philip_g]

when I got my first K, I had zero hours in M20 series. They wanted zero dual, I couldn't believe it. Then we got a rocket, again zero dual. Then I flew another brand awhile before I got a J, they wanted dual, lol

Edited November 27, 2021 by philip_g

[RobertGary1]

When I bought my F I had some time in a C anr my partner had some time in a J. No dual required by the insurance company at all. As a cfi I’ve seen it both ways when I’ve given insurance required dual. Some want the cfi to have alphabet model and some just M20. 

[carusoam]

For insurance purposes….

1) Pay the least…

2) Get the most coverage…

 

For bacon saving purposes…

1) pay the least…

2) Get the Transition Training specific to your needs…

 

Get schooled on the things that are different…

• Mooney handling is different than other planes…
• High HP is different than less HP…
• Operating in the FLs is different than lower levels…

 

We haven’t had a bad Go-around lately… let’s hold off on having one…. 
 

Overall… this seems to be a very personal situation…

Expect large differences if you are a pro-pilot flying currently…. Vs. a GA pilot that has taken a year off from flying…

Expect a good conversation detailing your currency and experience to net the best rate possible….

Having that conversation with Parker probably helps the most.  
 

My experience…

I got a year off between selling an M20C and getting an M20R…

That came with the usual first year 1amu expense…

And a requirement for TT… about 10hrs.

 

So…

If you are not a pro-pilot… and the Mooney has more capability than your prior Mooney… 

Expect that the Transition Training to add value…

The more expensive hull will cost more to insure…

If your giant MM experience appears tiny in the rear view mirror… that first year extra 1amu is the fight to focus on…

 

PP thoughts only…

-a-

[GMBrown]

Just to finish this post off... My insurer finally got back to me and they checked with their underwriter (American) and as I thought, 10 hours in each and every model Mooney (A, B, C, D...) would be needed to be covered for flying that specific model.  The only alternative would be to have the policy designate you as a named pilot under the policy but this would entail additional fee, which wouldn't come off the policy until the policy is renewed. 

Seems excessive, but so it goes. 

Thanks all for the replies.

[RobertGary1]

On 11/30/2021 at 1:48 PM, GMBrown said:

Just to finish this post off... My insurer finally got back to me and they checked with their underwriter (American) and as I thought, 10 hours in each and every model Mooney (A, B, C, D...) would be needed to be covered for flying that specific model.  The only alternative would be to have the policy designate you as a named pilot under the policy but this would entail additional fee, which wouldn't come off the policy until the policy is renewed. 

Seems excessive, but so it goes. 

Thanks all for the replies.

Also note there is a big difference between being named and meeting open warranty. 

[toto]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:56 PM, RobertGary1 said:

Also note there is a big difference between being named and meeting open warranty. 

What are the main differences? I haven't seen anything in policy text about different coverage limits for authorized open pilots versus named pilots. But I'm no insurance expert. 

[kortopates]

What are the main differences? I haven't seen anything in policy text about different coverage limits for authorized open pilots versus named pilots. But I'm no insurance expert. 

For starters, a pilot flying under the open pilot clause isn't insured at all - just the owner! That just means the owner is still covered if another pilot has an accident but the other pilot better have their own insurance when owners insurance company subrogates again them for damages.
But being a named insured makes the pilot covered by the owners policy just like the owner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Parker_Woodruff]

22 hours ago, toto said:

What are the main differences? I haven't seen anything in policy text about different coverage limits for authorized open pilots versus named pilots. But I'm no insurance expert. 

Sometimes a waiver of subrogation is afforded to a Named Pilot.  Sometimes it is not.  Your broker can explain the policy differences between carriers.

On many light aircraft policies, most pilots (some exceptions) using the aircraft with the permission of the Named Insured are considered Insured for liability coverages, but not protected from recourse from physical damage subrogation.

[RobertGary1]

25 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Sometimes a waiver of subrogation is afforded to a Named Pilot.  Sometimes it is not.  Your broker can explain the policy differences between carriers.

On many light aircraft policies, most pilots (some exceptions) using the aircraft with the permission of the Named Insured are considered Insured for liability coverages, but not protected from recourse from physical damage subrogation.

But is there a duty to defend an open pilot?

[mike_elliott]

56 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Sometimes a waiver of subrogation is afforded to a Named Pilot.  Sometimes it is not.  Your broker can explain the policy differences between carriers.

On many light aircraft policies, most pilots (some exceptions) using the aircraft with the permission of the Named Insured are considered Insured for liability coverages, but not protected from recourse from physical damage subrogation.

in other words, never fly someone else's plane without a WOS from their carrier, or have an ample non owned to cover your ASSets. Its best to have both.

[MooneyMitch]

Yes, what Mike said...... and even flying a very good friend’s aircraft without proper coverage for yourself is not a good idea....... interesting things can and do happen in a court room !!! 

[midlifeflyer]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:30 AM, 201er said:

Let me put it another way. Does having 1000+ hours Mooney time in a C, E, J, etc help you continue getting a better rate when you step up some letters or are you considered a 0 time pilot in make/model!

Maybe, maybe not. Hard to predict how an underwriter might look at prior experience. 

Not specifically about premium, a friend wanted to add me to his Ovation policy. I don't consider myself particularly high time and what I do have is divided among multiple   OK Mooney C and J time. Tiny bit of K. Zero Ovation. Having flown with him, I knew the Ovation was a different beast and we were wondering what the underwriters would require. 

I put an asterisk next to the 0 in "Time in Type" and proceeded to list my other Mooney time and even my time in Bonanzas with the IO-550 engine. Figured we might get lucky with only a 2-hour checkout.

Punch line? I was approved with zero time. No dual required.

[201er]

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I put an asterisk next to the 0 in "Time in Type" and proceeded to list my other Mooney time and even my time in Bonanzas with the IO-550 engine.

Back to the main theme of this topic, I would put combined M20 time in “Time in Type” and an asterisk splitting it by letter. Except for the Mite and Mustang, all Mooney’s are M20. Same type according to FAA. @Parker_Woodruff would it be wrong if a pilot to lump all M20 time on an insurance form (that asks Type or Make/Model)? According to the FAA they are all the same type.

Make: Mooney

Type: M20

Model: M20

What do you call E vs F vs J? Sub model? Type is defined. Is Model defined anywhere?

[midlifeflyer]

51 minutes ago, 201er said:

Back to the main theme of this topic, I would put combined M20 time in “Time in Type” and an asterisk splitting it by letter. Except for the Mite and Mustang, all Mooney’s are M20. Same type according to FAA. @Parker_Woodruff would it be wrong if a pilot to lump all M20 time on an insurance form (that asks Type or Make/Model)? According to the FAA they are all the same type.

No, they are not. Even from an ICAO standpoint there are M20Ps and M20Ts. But that's not the point, A wide range of Mooneys have the same ICAO designator for general model/performance information for flight tracking and ATC purposes. But if you look at anything else - the manufacturer's information, FAA type certification, even your aircraft registration - they are separate models. This look familiar?

From an insurance standpoint? It's actually pretty simple. Look at the policy! First time, never saw an insurance policy before? Didn't bother to read the application or instructions? Ask or correct the representation once you know!

I don't have any problem with lumping them so long as you also break it out although I of course think my way is better  because I am in the first instance answering their question rather than mine.   

I think it's important to remember  this isn't just about trying to get a cheap premium. It's about coverage. You are representing to - promising - the insurance company that you have a certain level of experience in the "make model" the insurer is going to insure. Their definition.. not yours. If you think not, try listing your 1,000 hours fixed gear M20D time rather than the the 1/2 hour you were able to handle the controls during the prepurchase demo flight on an applicator for an Eagle policy because, after all,  they are both M20P for ICAO purposes. Then watch the fun after a gear-up landing.

Edited December 6, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[201er]

31 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

No, they are not. Even from an ICAO standpoint there are M20Ps and M20Ts. But that's not the point, A wide range of Mooneys have the same ICAO designator for general model/performance information for flight tracking and ATC purposes. But if you look at anything else - the manufacturer's information, FAA type certification, even your aircraft registration - they are separate models. This look familiar?

From an insurance standpoint? It's actually pretty simple. Look at the policy! First time, never saw an insurance policy before? Didn't bother to read the application or instructions? Ask or correct the representation once you know!

I don't have any problem with lumping them so long as you also break it out although I of course think my way is better  because I am in the first instance answering their question rather than mine.   

I think it's important to remember  this isn't just about trying to get a cheap premium. It's about coverage. You are representing to - promising - the insurance company that you have a certain level of experience in the "make model" the insurer is going to insure. Their definition.. not yours. If you think not, try listing your 1,000 hours fixed gear M20D time rather than the the 1/2 hour you were able to handle the controls during the prepurchase demo flight on an applicator for an Eagle policy because, after all,  they are both M20P for ICAO purposes. Then watch the fun after a gear-up landing.

Ok, so then wouldn't "Time in Type" be all your Mooney M20 (type) time combined?

[Parker_Woodruff]

14 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

But is there a duty to defend an open pilot?

If they are considered an insured by the terms of the policy, yes.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Don't get a contract and the FAA wrong.  The insurance company can ask you to do things differently than the minimums the FARs require.  And they can describe the aircraft how they want.  One carrier even requires G-1000 specific time in the open pilot warranty.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

Ok, so then wouldn't "Time in Type" be all your Mooney M20 (type) time combined?

 Yours might be since you apparently have an "M20" "type rating" on the back of your certificate or maybe a "type" listing on your registration, or perhaps some personal definition of "type" which limits it to three characters. Me, I'd be answering what they are asking for rather than risk a denial of coverage playing word games with them.

Edited December 6, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

16 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

But is there a duty to defend an open pilot?

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

If they are considered an insured by the terms of the policy, yes.

There's the repeating bottom line. These are no regulated policies like car insurance. These are commercial contracts where insurer and policy holder have an almost unlimited right to agree on whatever they want.  What it says is what it is. 

And, as you know but others might not, one can be an insured for some purposed and not for others. That open pilot may well (in most policies I've read is) be an insured when it comes to the claims of thud parties, including the duty to defend. But not an insured when it comes to claims by the insurance company itself, like damage to the aircraft.  

When it comes to hull damage, the "open pilot warranty" is basically a promise by an insured that they will only allow pilots with a certain level of experience to fly their airplane. Meet it and the policyholder gets paid. Don't meet it, and the policyholder may be looking at a denial of coverage.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

There's the repeating bottom line. These are no regulated policies like car insurance. These are commercial contracts where insurer and policy holder have an almost unlimited right to agree on whatever they want.  What it says is what it is. 

And, as you know but others might not, one can be an insured for some purposed and not for others. That open pilot may well (in most policies I've read is) be an insured when it comes to the claims of thud parties, including the duty to defend. But not an insured when it comes to claims by the insurance company itself, like damage to the aircraft.  

When it comes to hull damage, the "open pilot warranty" is basically a promise by an insured that they will only allow pilots with a certain level of experience to fly their airplane. Meet it and the policyholder gets paid. Don't meet it, and the policyholder may be looking at a denial of coverage.

My agent said that the contract is provided or approved by the state of California. He said underwriters can only change names, values etc but the contract itself is state standard. @Parker_Woodruff can you confirm?

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

My agent said that the contract is provided or approved by the state of California. He said underwriters can only change names, values etc but the contract itself is state standard. @Parker_Woodruff can you confirm?

It's certainly possible that a state will decide to regulate them. California might have done that. I haven't checked. Parker might have.

[Parker_Woodruff]

6 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

My agent said that the contract is provided or approved by the state of California. He said underwriters can only change names, values etc but the contract itself is state standard. @Parker_Woodruff can you confirm?

Only 1 insurance carrier to my knowledge uses an ISO form for aviation.  Most of the others are custom-written.  While the policy forms are *approved* by the state, there is not a state-mandated policy form.  Each policy form is modified by endorsement to meet the standards of each particular state, if required.