NO flying through the Bravo when on an IFR flight plan??

[hubcap]

On a recent IFR trip back from Texas we were vectored completely around the DFW Bravo. The controller informed me I was not allowed to fly through the Bravo on an IFR flight plan. This was  new to me as I have flown through other Bravos via IFR in the past. So is this situational, or do different Bravos have different rules?

 

[neilpilot]

I suspect that the controller was saying that he wouldn't allow YOU to fly into Bravo, likely to reduce workload.  Not aware of any rules changes. 

[midlifeflyer]

8 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

I suspect that the controller was saying that he wouldn't allow YOU to fly into Bravo, likely to reduce workload.  Not aware of any rules changes. 

This sounds like it. There is no rule change about IFR and Bravo. But the only IFR/Bravo rule is that you don't need to hear the VFR-required "cleared into the Class Bravo." It does not mean they are not going to vector or route you around it for traffic reasons. 

Of course, it could be a trainee making an error, even if just a communication one.  @hubcap, do you have a date and time? Can you find the dialog on LiveATC? 

Edited July 8, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[HXG]

You are absolutely allowed to fly in Bravo airspace while flying IFR, but you still have to comply with ATC instructions and routing which may keep you away from busy Bravo airspace for traffic separation. 

[Greg Ellis]

If the controller said that you weren't allowed to fly through the Bravo on an IFR flight plan then I think he misspoke.  Now, he can vector you around the Bravo if he does not want you to fly through it but I don't think there is a FAR that actually makes it illegal.  In fact I have flown through the DFW Bravo many times but it was usually at a very slow time at night or very early morning.

I fly out of an airport under the Southwest area of the Class B airspace at DFW.  This is quite a congested airspace that is compact with a lot of satellite airports close to DFW itself including some big ones like Dallas Love and Addison, Alliance, Meacham, etc...  When I fly from my airport (Fort Worth Spinks) over to the East side of the airspace I am routinely vectored south east, outside of the Bravo, along the southern edge then back up the east side.  There are a lot of arrivals and departures daily into DFW as well as Arlington, Grand Prairie, Lancaster, Dallas Exec (all close together), etc... and having me out of the way lightens the load.

So, do not expect any sort of direct routing unless you hit it on a slow day or a slow time, otherwise you will be vectored around.  If you look at a chart of the arrival corridors and departure corridors for DFW and Love traffic, you will realize why they vector you around.

[StevenL757]

37 minutes ago, hubcap said:

On a recent IFR trip back from Texas we were vectored completely around the DFW Bravo. The controller informed me I was not allowed to fly through the Bravo on an IFR flight plan. This was  new to me as I have flown through other Bravos via IFR in the past. So is this situational, or do different Bravos have different rules?

Confirming others' remarks...this move was for spacing/sequencing only.  I've flown through that area many times in a few different aircraft, with different routing each time, both in and out of the Class B.  So yes - this case was situational.

Steve

[Ricky_231]

echoing what most people already said here - airspace is virtually "transparent" when you're IFR. The same people who would clear you through any airspace are the people telling you where to go when you're IFR.

PS: i flew through 3 bravos and 1 SFRA last night on an IFR flight plan, so pretty sure the rules haven't changed

[GeeBee]

Some TRACON's are better than others. CLT is hard over on no transient traffic through their Class B to the point of endangering aircraft during weather deviations. ATL is much better. DCA (Potomac) seems pretty good as does DTW. 

The thing about ATC facilities I notice is they tend to have a "DNA" that makes them the same year over year. Some are very accommodating and service oriented, others seem to hate their customers. The best, ATL, the worst IMHO is Indianapolis. I feel sorry for the people fresh out of the academy who get sent to Indianapolis. 

[Bartman]

I have received permission and flown thru Bravo both VFR and IFR, but have NEVER been given permission in CLT Bravo. In fact, I got the “I have an amendment to your flight plan advise when ready to copy” with diversion to THMSN and RAEFO so many times that’s what I file and rarely get an amendment. 

[rbridges]

I always use @Hank 's tail number on my IFR flight plans, so I just fly through Bravo even if they tell me no. 

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Some TRACON's are better than others. CLT is hard over on no transient traffic through their Class B to the point of endangering aircraft during weather deviations. ATL is much better. DCA (Potomac) seems pretty good as does DTW. 

The thing about ATC facilities I notice is they tend to have a "DNA" that makes them the same year over year. Some are very accommodating and service oriented, others seem to hate their customers. The best, ATL, the worst IMHO is Indianapolis. I feel sorry for the people fresh out of the academy who get sent to Indianapolis. 

Exactly the opposite of my experience. I've traversed CLT Bravo on a straight-line path from LA to Raleigh [Lower Alabama, my C won't go from Los Angeles to Raleigh without several stops]. I've also gone inside Cincinnati Bravo. On the other hand, I've never been allowed in the ATL Bravo, even when my desired path is directly over the field at ~040º, well out of the way of traffic going to / from Runway 9 & 27.

On a good day, ATL tells me to "remain clear of the Bravo" when VFR, but sometimes it's "stay out of the Bravo." When IFR, they route me to either SINCA or HEFIN; one time on the flight path described above, the nice controller let me choose for myself which penalty box I preferred, so I stared off into the two distances and chose the northern deviation rather than the southern one, since it wasn't quite as dark.

[Hank]

15 minutes ago, rbridges said:

I always use @Hank 's tail number on my IFR flight plans, so I just fly through Bravo even if they tell me no. 

 

What are friends for? I always loan out my tail number to friends in need!

[Bartman]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

Exactly the opposite of my experience. I've traversed CLT Bravo on a straight-line path from LA to Raleigh [Lower Alabama, my C won't go from Los Angeles to Raleigh without several stops]. I've also gone inside Cincinnati Bravo. On the other hand, I've never been allowed in the ATL Bravo, even when my desired path is directly over the field at ~040º, well out of the way of traffic going to / from Runway 9 & 27.

On a good day, ATL tells me to "remain clear of the Bravo" when VFR, but sometimes it's "stay out of the Bravo." When IFR, they route me to either SINCA or HEFIN; one time on the flight path described above, the nice controller let me choose for myself which penalty box I preferred, so I stared off into the two distances and chose the northern deviation rather than the southern one, since it wasn't quite as dark.

Going south to the FL panhandle ATL has never let me in and after repeatedly getting that amendment I always file HEFIN and they are happy. Due to weather and uncooperative controllers I’ve cancelled IFR and gone over airspace VFR including CLT, but the 12,500 ceiling over ATL adds an extra challenge to go VFR. 

[GeeBee]

On ATL it depends on the time of day and now post Covid, they are a little harder, although I ripped through ATL Bravo the other day KFFC to KGVL. I've been over CLT at 4 in the morning and re-routed around Bravo. I've even been re-routed around CLT when I was above class B.

 

[Davidv]

Houston does the same thing to me when I'm transiting, it just depends on your altitude and how much you're going to make them work harder with the airliners on the various STARS and SIDS.

[laytonl]

In my experience (I live under the ATL class B )  ATC rarely clears me thru Bravo when IFR but frequently I’m cleared thru when VFR.  I’ve never been cleared thru CLT.  Lee

[GeeBee]

To some extent you are correct, and Class B is optimized to cover DP and AP corridors. However, at 4am, there is little traffic. All nighters do not arrive in the terminal area until 0530 at the earliest (mostly due to ground staffing on the ramp) there is little excuse other than a facility not desiring to serve its users effectively.

I've also ran into some pretty egregious examples of class B abuse. In one case NorCal ran me up to the boundary of Class B. descending into SQL then said, "radar service terminated, remain clear of Class B. I had to swing a hard 180. A later phone call and conversation produced an apology after a review of the tapes. The point however is there are some controllers who really like to stick it to the "little guy" when the little guy is playing by the rules.

I don't expect royal service, but I do expect a fair shake. I used to live in an "airline town" and know a lot of controllers who worked at the Tracon, Tower, and Center that serves the airport. To a person, they are true  professionals. They would tell me about other places where they worked where the attitude was less than accommodating. Surprisingly those places where never the largest hubs or the busiest airports but would use their status as a minor Class B or Class C facility to stick it to light aircraft.

Finally, as the OP here stated, the controller either misspoke or was unaware of the rules. I've seen so many controllers unaware of Class B rules especially as it relates to outlying airports and aircraft without electrical systems underlying class B. Just the other day on another forum I frequent, SoCal was getting ready to drop the hammer on a J-3 Cub,  even sending a police unit to identify "the scofflaw" until the pilot phoned the facility and quoted them Part 91.

 

[hubcap]

12 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

This sounds like it. There is no rule change about IFR and Bravo. But the only IFR/Bravo rule is that you don't need to hear the VFR-required "cleared into the Class Bravo." It does not mean they are not going to vector or route you around it for traffic reasons. 

Of course, it could be a trainee making an error, even if just a communication one.  @hubcap, do you have a date and time? Can you find the dialog on LiveATC? 

The date was 6/28 late in the AM or early in the PM local time.

[RJBrown]

This was a lazy controller. This is bad behavior. He should be reported. You have as much right to the airspace as Anyone. 

Colorado Springs used to be full of them.

Their airspace was up to 10200. I would normally fly over at 10,500.
Out of courtesy I would contact them when flying over their airspace.

At some point they started diverting any traffic that contacted them almost to Kansas to avoid traffic conflicts. Even those above their airspace.

And seriously Colorado Springs is NEVER that busy. Just lazy controllers.

From that point onward I would only talk to them if I were called as traffic while already above them.

A friend that I have met since I moved to Arizona was in charge of traffic control in Colorado Springs after these incidences.

I told him this story and his response was. Yes that was one of the issues I had to fix when I got that assignment. 
He showed little patience for this type of lazy behavior. They were not following proper procedure and were wrong to do it.

Unless that controller can show a real and pressing need to vector you around the airspace he should be reprimanded.

If this particular incident was reported and the tapes show what you say he should be “retrained” to follow proper procedure.

My story is a class C airport but the rules are similar. Class B should be as accommodating as safety allows. 
this is another reason I prefer a turbo plane. Unless adverse winds dictate I would always be above the class B.

Once coming back from Sidney Nebraska we flew back over DIA/DEN Class B without talking to a soul just because we could.

‘Very interesting perspective right over the center of DIA.

 

 

[carusoam]

7 minutes ago, philip_g said:

I love this. You have zero idea what he or she was doing or had going but you're an expert on it. You could be standing there looking at his scope and still wouldn't know.

 

Do you guys think approach controllers at some of the busiest airports in the world just have nothing but time to mess with you? Like they want to vector you around and watch you forever just for funsies? I love it. So confident with so little knowledge.

 

The FAA is always hiring. Apply. Let us know when they wash you out.

Are you poking the bear intentionally?

We have a few ATC MSers…

Do you have an ATC background?

 

To keep MS an enjoyable place to visit…

Lets not attack the other MSers… no matter how we feel about what they wrote…

 

We actually need everyone to be here…. And participate…

After a while… you will notice MS is on the internet… but it isn’t the internet…  

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

I was interested in asking a few questions if you had an ATC background… 

Its OK if you are just like the rest of us….  

We slowly get to know everyone here over time…

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

Don't all or at least most Class Bs have VFR transit route right through the B area?

Seems a controller "could" vector any one across the airspace roughly along those routes

Now if one is crossing obliquely through the Class B that might not work out. 

I just had Las Vegas "guide" me across their airspace twice in a day even when they were busy.  It can be done because the main airport traffic does have to go down and come up leaving a valley in between to pass thru. 

LAX has great VFR corridors for crossing. Crossing shouldn't be such a difficult proposition most of the time. If Class B is closed MOST of the time I feel its an ATC issue that needs to be addressed. Maybe a phone call to the Chief to set up a meeting to come to a better solution is in the offing? If they won't discuss it then maybe its time to work it up the chain of command The top of the Chain of Command might also be the House Rep or the Senator. All depends on how egregious you feel it is.

Crossing through ABQ territory has always been my Achilles heel  They don't play nice any time. 

[PMcClure]

I have had a mixed experience with getting cleared through Bravo. I assume it depends on the situation and the controller and I also think the pilot. I routinely fly from Alabama to Monroe NC and have to navigate both ATL and CLT Bravo. If I file direct, the plan is always amended around ATL. So I file to HEFLIN on the West Side of ATL, then up to NELLO on the north. Often, I can ask and am allowed closer to Bravo. Direct is 10-15 minutes faster than flying the waypoints on a 1.5 hour flight. On descent into CLT they usually start me down about Greer with a warning to stay clear of the bravo. I have a USER waypoint on my iPad called xBravo that reminds me when to start down because sometimes they forget and I have to descend at an alarming rate to comply. Coming home, CLT typically clears me through their Bravo once clear of arrivals/departures and I typically fly below ATL bravo but ATL will clear me through the NW section of their Bravo most days if I ask and flying direct home. Good experiences in DC, NYC and Cleveland. DFW puts me on an arrival or departure procedure every time into Mckinny even though it is barely inside of the edge of Bravo. So I usually cancel and fly VFR if able. 

If I file direct out of CLT on bad weather days, they usually give me a complicated route. So I typically file NELLO. Sometimes they still give me a stupid route right over CLT and then over the mountains to Chattanooga then home. I have declined that routing several times for weather and they will work with me. 

Many times I have asked for clearance through Bravo for good reason (IFR or VFR). Weather  - almost always will clear me if they can and my request is reasonable.  Once over CLT on an IFR flight plan to DC area there was a line of thunderstorms as far as I could see and the only clear spot was inside of CLT Bravo. I was already deviating and asked them to clear me through that spot. The radio was alive with the airlines all doing the same thing. CLT told me they were unable which would have forced me to divert about halfway through my route. I asked politely if they could clear me as they were clearing other aircraft through there. The controller declined again and I asked to divert to Hickory. A supervisor came on and told me she could clear me through and had several airliners extend their hold while I went through. Once through, I heard her say - Cactus 123 traffic 12:00 a Mooney - then the radio exploded again with traffic. VIP treatment? 

As GA, we have a right to the same airspace as the big guys. Some controllers seem to think otherwise. But some pilots forget that controllers can have a challenging job and an airliner full of people and low on fuel need not be delayed for a single looking to shave a few minutes off their flight plan. 

Many of the controllers in CLT recognize my tail sign and say welcome back 51K. ATL is rarely friendly but always professional and always defensive of their airspace. Overall, I am thankful for the support they give but do think they can be too greedy with their space. 

[GeeBee]

8 hours ago, philip_g said:

I love this. You have zero idea what he or she was doing or had going but you're an expert on it. You could be standing there looking at his scope and still wouldn't know. You do realize that at DFW departures keep coming right? He's not going to shut off departures for one bug basher in the way and he doesn't have time to vector 20 departures because some guy blundered across the departure corridor... or the arrival stream that fucks up the sequence... Or the downwind.... The book says safe, orderly, and expeditious. Not entitled and more entitled.

Do you guys think approach controllers at some of the busiest airports in the world just have nothing but time to mess with you? Like they want to vector you around and watch you forever just for funsies? I love it. So confident with so little knowledge.

 

The FAA is always hiring. Apply. Let us know when they wash you out.

 

PS wouldn't pilots spouting off about controllers needing training makes controllers want to turn pilots in for the hundreds of mistakes they make a week that are overlooked?

Anybody can have a bad day. I have had a bad day, controllers sometimes have a bad day and things get crosswise with class B airspace. Heck, even you could have a bad day.

[RJBrown]

11 hours ago, philip_g said:

I love this. You have zero idea what he or she was doing or had going but you're an expert on it. You could be standing there looking at his scope and still wouldn't know. You do realize that at DFW departures keep coming right? He's not going to shut off departures for one bug basher in the way and he doesn't have time to vector 20 departures because some guy blundered across the departure corridor... or the arrival stream that fucks up the sequence... Or the downwind.... The book says safe, orderly, and expeditious. Not entitled and more entitled.

Do you guys think approach controllers at some of the busiest airports in the world just have nothing but time to mess with you? Like they want to vector you around and watch you forever just for funsies? I love it. So confident with so little knowledge.

 

The FAA is always hiring. Apply. Let us know when they wash you out.

 

PS wouldn't pilots spouting off about controllers needing training makes controllers want to turn pilots in for the hundreds of mistakes they make a week that are overlooked?

You are being quite the, impolite person.

re read what I said.

I have personal experience with improper ATC behavior in a class C.

tThat opinion was backed up by a man that later ran ATC in that area. He remembered the poor way that it was run and he corrected it.

I have been turned into another plane in the pattern by a tower controller, I knew the situation in the air and literally took over the tower controllers job for a moment.

I have been instructed to land on a runway that a citation was pulled onto while I was 200’ agl. Then had to use the tapes to show I was right and the controller was wrong.

I qualified my statement about class B. “Traffic conditions permitting” we can judge traffic, especially now with ADSB. We do understand and are understanding of busy controllers. Mine was not a broad brush.

To run an IFR flight around for the controllers convenience and not for safety and then lie about it if Wrong.

I am older than ATC retirement age.

you are a clueless putz.

Yes both pilots and controllers make mistakes.

Yes most controllers are Wonderful Hard working people.

Some Controllers are less than respectful just as there are bad pilots. BOTH NEED CORRECTED.

BUT, some like the one that started this discussion are intentional.

The president of Pegasus Airpark is a pilot and a controller at Phoenix Sky Harbor. I am also on the HOA board and he is a personal friend. My retired friend ran a center before he retired. I ask the these kind of questions all the time. I do try to verify what I post. This situation was bad action by a dishonest individual. Intentional lazy behavior should be challenged.