Trying to Transitioning from Cessna

[tim417]

@NewM20CPIC I’m a little late to the party but congrats! I, too, started on a 172 and transitioned to my 1963 Mooney M20C which I purchased not long before you did! Enjoy the ride and I look forward to seeing lots of pictures!

 

Tim

[Aerodon]

Yes I have been through this before.  It really is risk mitigation from the company's perspective.  It takes a really well qualified pilot and equipment to be able to fly with some level of safety and reliability, and to be blunt, not many of us are up to it.

I worked for a large company once that had a fleet of Commander 1000's and ran a mini airline to various remote locations as well as a 'charter style' flights for senior management.  My instructor was one of the corporate pilots, and really helped my understand the risk of GA flying at the private and corporate level.  Employees were 'banned' from driving to or from sites at night.  You either drove the day before, or the day after a meeting or assignment.  Two separate night time road fatalities on company time made the company realize that a) it is extremely expensive to the company and b) it is not reasonable to work a full day and then drive a few hours.  So they made the rules and provided a viable alternative.  Flying my Warrior was not the same standard as a Commander 1000.

The owner of an engineering company in Calgary crashed his C172 on a private flight (he and his friend died, but his granddaughter survived. Several months later his son crashed the company Jetprop along with a bunch of employees.  Apart from the immediate tragedy to all the families involved, can you imagine the lawsuits that follow from the employees families etc. Its after the accident that everyone finds out how good or bad everything is, from insurance, pilots qualifications & currency, maintenance etc.  And its not like the insurance company cutting a check for $50k just to pay for some repairs - once you get to 3 passengers families each claiming $XXm from the company, the pilot, his estate, etc. - the fight is on.  Think of a few recent accidents where the planes crashed into houses and in some cases killed people on the ground.  You can be sure that the homeowner insurance company will make a claim against you, your estate, and hopefully you have enough liability insurance?

I am not trying to be a wet blanket, just pointing out that when we start flying friends and family around, take that extra level of risk mitigation.  If you start flying work colleagues around, they are naively expecting the transport to be as same as a charter or airline. You need to approach this like a corporate pilot would.  Last time I chartered a Lear 45, the pilots went and checked themselves into a hotel for the day to make sure they were well rested.  They were probably at the airport at 6:00am, we flew from 7:00 to 7:45, they rested, we did our work, and we returned at 16:00, landed before 17:00. 

I have used my aircraft for a lot of business travel over the years, sometimes at my own expense, other times reimbursed for travel etc.  Zero incidents or accidents, but looking back, there were a few flights that were not very smart.

Personally, I (or my estate) have too much to lose to have any claim against me.  So I'll fly myself around on business anytime (helps to be the CEO of the company).  But I would think twice about carrying employees or contractors to a location.

 

Aerodon

 

 

[MikeOH]

I completely understand why a company doesn't want you flying other employees around.

My issue is with flying MYSELF to where the company needs me.  If I am paying for the cost, then there should be no prohibition.  After all, if get in an accident on my drive to work and there is a lawsuit, it will only be against me; as it should be.  Why should it be a different standard merely based on my selected mode of transportation?  My duty is to get to work, how I do that, and the risk I take doing it, should be none of my company's business!

If I accept payment for my travel, then I can see how the company would be dragged into court in the event of a mishap.

[Aerodon]

45 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I completely understand why a company doesn't want you flying other employees around.

My issue is with flying MYSELF to where the company needs me.  If I am paying for the cost, then there should be no prohibition.  After all, if get in an accident on my drive to work and there is a lawsuit, it will only be against me; as it should be.  Why should it be a different standard merely based on my selected mode of transportation?  My duty is to get to work, how I do that, and the risk I take doing it, should be none of my company's business!

If I accept payment for my travel, then I can see how the company would be dragged into court in the event of a mishap.

To the OP, my apologies for the thread drift.

Mike,

In my experience, most employment contracts have a 'place of employment' in them and you are expected to get yourself there.  And you may be expected to travel near and far, depending upon the type of work.  Generally the employee expects to be reimbursed and travel in company time, so it is the company's business on how you get there.  There is clearly a difference between driving to your place of employment or to the job site.  One is not the company's business, one is.

Even if you don't tell anyone, arrive at the job site and don't claim any expenses - all is good until there is an accident.  Starting with your wife still wanting company life insurance and death benefits.

And there probably is a way of structuring your employment contract to make it very clear that you are expected to show up at the job site by your own means, then you have what you want?

All the possibilities make my head hurt, so I found it easier just to follow the wishes of the company at the time and save my energy for other fights.  And ultimately start my own business where it becomes my problem.

 

Aerodon

 

 

[NewM20CPIC]

On 3/19/2022 at 3:49 PM, tim417 said:

@NewM20CPIC I’m a little late to the party but congrats! I, too, started on a 172 and transitioned to my 1963 Mooney M20C which I purchased not long before you did! Enjoy the ride and I look forward to seeing lots of pictures!

 

Tim

Thanks Tim.  If I didn't say so congratulations on your M20C.  How much flying were you doing before you got it and how much you are you doing now?

[carusoam]

Reading the employee handbook often covers the GA flying in a brief paragraph…

Finding people in your company that fly GA planes can give great insight…

Some have goofy attainable requirements… like having an IR… or CPL…

It is normal according to the IRS to fly on company business… they give an annual cents per mile guideline like they do for driving a car, or riding a motorcycle from one work site to the next…

 

There are a few discussions around here on how other MSers handle this situation…

Many only reported the miles as if they were driven… Google can give the actual road miles…. Mooney only uses straight line miles… what you report is up to you and your ethics choices…

Face it… if you didn’t get to the destination… you won’t be reporting that you flew or drove… 

 

As far as insurance goes… read the fine print to see how aviation is or isn’t covered…

 

Driving work mates around or flying them around takes on a whole new level of responsibility in the same way…

As a young guy with nothing to sue for… it was easy to rent a van using the company credit card and drive hundreds of miles with ten employees in the van… and hope all goes well…

Flying with friends from work… many of them had their PPL… 

Having a right seater that knows aviation can be extra helpful during busy times…

If you want to fly for work…. Make sure you get the right advice… keep looking for the way to make it happen…

Flying GA isn’t sooo dangerous that it shouldn’t be done…

It has an elevated level of danger that can be covered financially…

Nothing more comforting than seeing what is required nicely detailed in the employee handbook…

Or bumping into your division’s VP and his C182 at an airport….  
 

If you expect to not get noticed… I ran into my division’s VP at an airport…

PPs have a tendency to know each other around work… it’s hard to hide the details…

Some of the most capable people around work have their PPL…. Find the others around your work place…

PP thoughts only, not an HR manager…

Best regards,

-a-

[tim417]

@NewM20CPIC

I was trying to fly twice a month before buying the Mooney, but my club has been so busy that all the rentals were booked out three weeks in advance. It made it difficult to fly often as weather and 100hr inspections interfered as well. I had about 250 ish hours mostly in a 172 prior to buying the Mooney. I now have almost 40 hours in it in less than two months of ownership. Ownership definitely makes flying a lot more accessible. 

[carusoam]

Back in NJ in the 90s…

Renting wasn’t too expensive…

But, renting for a whole day cost a minimum of four hours… whether you flew 4 hours or not…

Taking the plane over a weekend day… wasn’t going to happen… plane schedule was too full…

 

So… if your weekend didn’t include sat/sun…. Zipping out late on your last day of work, getting back two days later would cost 12 rental hours…

Owning suddenly made a lot of sense…

My weekend flights work out to about 2.5hrs total… from Fri-sun…   
 

No waiting for somebody to bring the plane back… and I don’t have to be back to home base until I’m ready…

Go ownership!

-a-

[thinwing]

On 5/31/2021 at 3:45 PM, A64Pilot said:

Buying fuel and lunch doesn’t even come close to paying for the airplane, FAA isn’t going to give you any grief for that.

‘You get into trouble by flying a plane load of people every Friday and return every Sunday down to Biloxi for example, and say they are sharing expenses.

I know someone that does that in a Baron, FAA sort of jokingly calls them 134 & 1/2 operations, but unless there is a complaint they rarely pursue them.

But if you add up the ownership expenses of owning an airplane fuel and lunch most likely fall below 50% , and that’s pretty easy to defend as sharing expenses.

However there was this case maybe 15 years or so ago where someone accepted like $20 for a Stearman ride, hit wires, pax died and he ended up in prison, based largely on accepting the $20. Pax wanted to help pay the gas bill.

‘Anyone remember that?

Found it, but it wasn’t $20 it was $8 and there is more to the story, as one charge gave precedence to others

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2008/july/01/after-the-accident

It wasnt the fact that he accepted any money...he was flying low over a river in a stearman and hit wires resulting in death of his passenger .FAA tagged him with a careless and reckless violation...local prosecuter than went after a vehicular manslaughter charge....felony with a 10 year prision sentence....prosecuter realizing he had a weak case proving intent ,lack of impairment etc offers a misdemeanor plea bargain 5 min before his trial is due to start.He took it rather than risk a felony hit (doubtful i think )and time and expense of a jury trial....30 days in jail from judge and he still could do his job on work release.Judge also gave him 3 years probation,forbid him from flying for 2 years (not sure if this part would survive a judicial challenge)and no alcohol consumption during probation (alcohol was not and issue in this accident)