Has anybody taken Mooney to grass strips in Idaho?

[kajo]

I recently bought the book "Fly Idaho!" which lists all the cool grass strips airport in idaho (https://idahoaviation.com/all-idaho-airstrips)  My mechanic do not recommend taking my Mooney Ovation to any of the airport listed there, even the ones marked with the least runway hazard index like Smiley Creek (https://idahoaviation.com/u/plans/23/SOPSmileyCreek.2019.pdf) he said Mooney especially the 6 cylinder engine ones have weak nose gear compared the weight of the engine and if I hit a pothole the nose gear is easy to collapse, so taxing in grass is very dangerous.  

Has anybody taken a Mooney to any of the grass strips in Idaho introduced in this book?  In what season? I have never actually landed anything on grass, although I have done so on some very rough paved runways like in Catalina island (KAVX). Other than standard soft landing (basically let the airplane float more) and pull back yoke after landing with flaps up which is standard for every landing, what special caution is needed? 

[Immelman]

Smiley was quite nice last Sept. Nearing end of season... things were drying out. I think they had stopped watering for the year.

Before that I went to Johnson Creek and Smiley many years ago. Went earlier in the summer.

In all cases the field conditions were excellent.

I fly an E, and hope to take another summer trip with my young daughter this year.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Immelman

[kajo]

Thanks E is 4 cylinder so Ovation might be different.  Did you have any problem with damaging the gear door? I read in https://mooneyspace.com/topic/37913-mooneys-on-grass/?tab=comments#comment-651591  the tall grass can damage the door since it is so close to the ground. 

[Schllc]

I’ve landed at both in a 180, little over a year ago. 
as far as grass strips go, both were pretty nice, but I wouldn’t attempt it in my Mooney. Between prop clearance and gear doors, I don’t believe the odds are worth it. 
This is an approach at Johnson’s creek

[Hank]

Lookup piperpainter's videos on YouTube. Then again, he flew a C not an R--likely would make a difference. 

[Niko182]

Ive taken my Ovation / Screaming eagle (same exact airplane) to smiley creek and johnson. Its not an issue. I guess however ive taken to my mooney to places a lot of people dont feel comfy flying to. If you have any questions ask away.

As far as landing on grass/gravel/dirt, I recommend staying lighter, and keeping the nosehweel high. So far my experience on to soft field places consist of el mirage lakebed, johnson creek, smiley creek, frazier lake, and amboy. I wouldnt hesitate to go back to any of them.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Niko182

[PeteMc]

I took a K into a KNOW grass strip in norther ID (66S).  It had always been kept in great shape when I lived up in the NW, but I still walked it before flying in.  AND I removed my lower gear doors. 

You're going to have even a heavier nose than I do.  So that another consideration if you hit hole and get a big bounce on landing or takeoff.

[FoxMike]

I been to Smiley Creek in the Bravo.  You need to be very careful.  I would not go into very many of the Idaho grass strips in a long body.  Be sure to check on current conditions of the runway just before you go.  When I was younger I flew to many of the back country airstrips but not in a Mooney.

[carusoam]

Some people really know how to fly their Mooney...

Some people have great memory of how exactly they landed their Mooney 550 weeks ago...

Some grass strips are smoother than some paved strips...

Some people can afford the extra maintenance that may occur with minor damage...

M20Es are pretty light, and come with extra power... and a total loss doesn’t set you back as far as a lost LB would...

Bryan proved that a human being can land a Mooney on several unimproved strips... often.

 

So...

Let’s say you fly often...

if all of your landings have the stall horn sound just before your mains touch... 

And you haven’t bounced a landing since you were new to flying...

You use an AOAi because your kids thought you would like one...

You know the stall charts as if you studied them yesterday...

 

What’s left...  avoid any holes, and long grass, and tall transitions to/from paved surfaces...

Flying off of grass strips it clearly covered in the O1’s POH...

If you don’t have performance charts for grass strips... you didn’t get the good Ovation...   

Inner gear doors are designed to be removable...

 

Continue to enjoy the Mooney Life!

It takes a few pieces of bad luck, or il-preparation to come together to cause a problem...

The nose gear of a long body hasn’t ever collapsed because it wasn’t strong enough...  good luck finding a report that says one has...  (don’t confuse the pile driver maneuver of the third bounce as a structural weakness...  going against training is a cognitive weakness...)

Obviously, we don’t have tundra tires... like many of the back country flyers... there are going to be things that they can do, that is best to let them have their fun...

I don’t use grass strips... and it isn’t the airplane’s fault... 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

This guy has good footage of landing on most of the strips last summer. He is in a 185 but there are several I would a land on in a Mooney. Regardless it’s fun to watch.

https://youtube.com/user/klpilot

 

[M016576]

Pull the lower gear doors.  Be careful with where you’re taxiing.  Practice your short field/soft field work before going out there.  A mooney incurs a little more risk than a tail dragger- mainly due to the prop clearance imo... but it’s not “un-doable” so long as precautions are taken.  
 

I grew up not far from Smiley Creek.  They used to have the best milkshakes....

[A64Pilot]

As has been said, some grass is smoother and as firm as pavement, I prefer grass over pavement, it’s easier on the aircraft.

Then there are gravel bars

‘I live on a grass strip, rougher than I’d like but it’s been OK so far. I keep the lower gear doors on, and in my case I think it’s the gear donuts if anything that won’t last as long as if I were on pavement as my strip is bumpy, I’m a J model but we have a TLS on the field too

But if you want to fly the backcountry, get yourself a Super Cub or a Maule, an IO-540 Maule is pretty capable, although for pure back country a 360 with fixed prop could be argued to be better, but as airplanes go Maule’s are undervalued, meaning for an airplane pretty inexpensive, the SC on the other hand is just the opposite.

‘Don’t “wack” it and a couple of years later when you get it out of your system, you should be able to sell it and lose no money if you were careful buying. Lots of people buy and sell airplanes ever year or two and fly for pretty much nothing, they of course buy “right”, several even make not an insignificant amount of money doing it, same as the Stock Market, similar risks I guess.

Off airport is fun, it’s something that every pilot should enjoy, but like everything else having the right equipment really helps.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[PeteMc]

Not in ID, but on the Grass Strip topic...   Has anyone been into Basin Harbor, VT (B06) recently?

Haven't been there recently, but that is a grass strip I would take a Mooney into.  At least I'm assuming it's still in great shape.  The runway is (was?) maintained by the golf course grounds crew.

[RJBrown]

Huskys, Cubs, 175s, 180s, Maules and some kitplanes inhabit our Airpark. There is a gravel strip between the runway and the taxiway in front of my hangar for the tundra tire guys. They flyout on weekends in groups as large as 10. Followed a group on the ads-b exchange out to the Santa Theresa mountains and back Sunday.  There are two Cub type experimentals with massive nose gears here also. Mooneys are just not made for this type activity. 
The picture is of me on the dirt strip at Gateway Colorado. Overhead view shows the airport and the museum. A severe uphill/downhill  one way strip. It was a fun trip.

But, I probably would not do it again. Too little gain compared to the risk. The higher up this runway the rougher it got. Risk of a prop strike would be too high without walking the runway prior to landing.
 

If you look real close there is a taildragger behind me.

Edited April 13, 2021 by RJBrown

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Not in ID, but on the Grass Strip topic...   Has anyone been into Basin Harbor, VT (B06) recently?

Haven't been there recently, but that is a grass strip I would take a Mooney into.  At least I'm assuming it's still in great shape.  The runway is (was?) maintained by the golf course grounds crew.

I have been in there but a dozen years ago in my then Diamond DA40.  I got a pretty good bounce while taxing in a bump in the terrain a couple of times to the point that I was worried I would prop strike.  I would not go back with my DA40 which I think is a bit better than a Mooney as it sits a bit higher.

A shame that its not on my list of places to go since it is not far from here and there is a terrific restaurant right there off the grass runway and right on the beautiful lake looking west across to the Adirondacks.  Pretty idealic.

[geoffb]

My E was pretty light and I didn't hesitate to operate it off grass.  Didn't make it to JC or Smiley, but by all accounts it would be fine, and probably the same for an O.  Watch the videos of what goes in and out of JC and decide based on that.  It's pretty long, pretty smooth.  Lot's out there on youtube to help you reconnoiter.

Just don't think that because Painter got his C in and out, that it's good for your Ovation.  A C or E is a much better short/rough field performer.  And as mentioned, it's hard on gear doors, props, paint.  

 

[Immelman]

If you do decide to go...

Smiley Creek is quite forgiving in terms of surrounding terrain, and long. I think the question there is very binary: If you decide you're comfortable taking your plane to grass, Smiley will probably work out quite nicely. Though I wouldn't take off uphill. The campground is wonderful. Hot showers! Wifi! The state of Idaho has a couple of pilot rental cars available, first come first served. Made a nice day trip to hike out to alpine lakes. Across the street, the restaurant is decent. Grab a beer, or a Huckleberry milkshake!

There seems to be a trend at airport campgrounds of drive-up folks using the facilities.... FYI. I have seen this at a number of fields. Did not see at Smiley last year but the caretaker told me that. It is easily accessible from the road so that may be a consideration.

Johnson creek is in a canyon and, while tame by Idaho back country standards, raises the challenge up several notches for a Mooney pilot. I would not attempt that unless feeling extremely proficient and rehearsed for several contingencies. For example, depending on the conditions, there may be a time on approach when a go around is not prudent or possible. I would not attempt it at the wrong time of day, or with anything more than light winds, and would only do so, in my E, at light weight, to reduce such hazard. It can also be very busy. If I go again I would probably strive to go mid-week in benign weather when there was not some sort of fly-in event happening.

Of course there are many others worth looking into. Many I would not consider in our E. piperpainter was a brave guy! I'm not that brave. He now has a 6-seat cessna more suited to that stuff with additional family members....

Also had a great breakfast in Stanley. That is a weird one, half dirt half paved. What is the 'bump' like between the two halves? Would want to know before going again....

Edited April 13, 2021 by Immelman

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Immelman said:

piperpainter was a brave guy! I'm not that brave. He now has a 6-seat cessna more suited to that stuff with additional family members....

He did a good job showing the world that a Mooney is NOT hard to land. But he seemed to mostly avoid grass strips, too. Gravel, dirt and bare rocks aplenty, but not many with solid grass covering the landing surface.

I've not taken my own C anywhere, as Idaho is one of the 3 or 4 states that I haven't made it to you [although I've only flown myself into 18 so far]. But I've been to grass fields in my Mooney in at least WV, GA and NC.

[thinwing]

all the mentioned grass strips in IDAHO (cavanaugh bay ,priest lake not mentioned)are suitable for long bodies assuming somebody on the ground did the "walk" test...ie walking on the grass left no discernable depression in the ground.Smiley creek in late july is especially suitable due to length and care the grass recieves by the seasonal care taker.Ive flown much heavier Baron twin heavily loaded into all mentioned strips with no issues and similar prop (2 blade)clearance.The Stinson crash shown on utube took place at Smiley Creek and shows how smooth the runway really is even on the over run,that was a density alitude issue with 4 big guys in an under performing 150 hp that was not leaned out before takeoff

[steingar]

I know a couple that take their E into all sorts of turf strips in Michigan.  Then again, I recall his E has turned into maintenance hog, and I have a sneaking suspicion I know why...

 

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, thinwing said:

all the mentioned grass strips in IDAHO (cavanaugh bay ,priest lake not mentioned)...

Actually, scroll back a few messages.  66S was mentioned!! 

[geoffb]

Cavanaugh is a fairway.  As long as your comfortable with the length its no problem.

[jlunseth]

I have landed on all the grass strips in Minnesota, about 2/3rds in my 231 and about a third in a 172. It was fun for awhile, but technical, took some work, and there is always a risk. I never had anything approaching a harrowing situation. But I quit doing it because the novelty wore off and there is some risk, the prop clearance is just too low. If I were to ever decide that it would be fun to lark around to grass strips and go camping or fishing I think I would look for an inexpensive high wing like the Cessna’s or a J3, something you could change tires on if you wanted. I was on the Tsiu River fishing about a year and a half ago and a guy on the far bank did this in a Beaver, an extremely capable off-road aircraft. I have been right seat for landings with one tire in the ocean in these things, but this guy had tarmac tires on for a loose sand takeoff from the look of it. I flew out of camp the next day with the guy who built this airplane, he was not happy and thought the plane would likely not fly again, there would be an engine tear-down at a minimum. I will grant you, this is sand, and all the grass strips I have landed on, some 35 of them, have been well maintained and there were no issues. All the same....

 

[kmyfm20s]

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I have landed on all the grass strips in Minnesota, about 2/3rds in my 231 and about a third in a 172. It was fun for awhile, but technical, took some work, and there is always a risk. I never had anything approaching a harrowing situation. But I quit doing it because the novelty wore off and there is some risk, the prop clearance is just too low. If I were to ever decide that it would be fun to lark around to grass strips and go camping or fishing I think I would look for an inexpensive high wing like the Cessna’s or a J3, something you could change tires on if you wanted. I was on the Tsiu River fishing about a year and a half ago and a guy on the far bank did this in a Beaver, an extremely capable off-road aircraft. I have been right seat for landings with one tire in the ocean in these things, but this guy had tarmac tires on for a loose sand takeoff from the look of it. I flew out of camp the next day with the guy who built this airplane, he was not happy and thought the plane would likely not fly again, there would be an engine tear-down at a minimum. I will grant you, this is sand, and all the grass strips I have landed on, some 35 of them, have been well maintained and there were no issues. All the same....

 

That plane is still flying.

[jlunseth]

5 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

That plane is still flying.

What did they have to do to get it flying again? I did not see it tip over, I was busy fighting a fish, heard the engine stop, looked up and there it sat, so I don't know what the "hit" was like. Obviously there was a prop strike and the engine stopped. We wondered how they got it back home, this happened out in the wilderness, no roads and no help. I was told they hammered the prop out to get it home. It was Alaska, there is not exactly a service depot around every bend and you are on your own. Ouch!