Is it a sin to buy a Cirrus?

[smccray]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

This one has a new tornado alley turbo.  My friend just got one and he does 200 knots TAS in the low teens on 18 GPH (I’ve seen it myself).  Yes, I know Mooney’s can do that too but not while hauling 1300 lbs.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/203015581/1990-beechcraft-a36-bonanza-piston-single-aircraft

Yup....

[Tim Jodice]

28 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

If I had 300k in my pocket - I think I would eye that turbine bonanza asking at 275.  I wonder if it is legit?

Anyway besides the turbine on the nose, its otherwise a bonanza - cost wise I mean.

Reliability wise - I would be happier driving a single engine turbine at night than a parachute airplane at night.

Are you are referring to this one?

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/192415789/1981-beechcraft-a36-bonanza-turboprop-turboprop-aircraft

It is legit.  It is that cheap because it is due for a hot section inspection. Depending on what it needs can make the cost of a factory engine on an Ovation look like an oil change.

A few speculations, in addition to the hours the engine and propeller are likely is old from a calander standpoint and does not have any of the power mods that increase thermodynamic power or the ability to hold rated power to a higher altitude before it temps out. 

I flew a 1983 model 2 years ago that had old avionics, good but not excellent paint and interior that ended up selling for $510K.  It had a factory engine with all of the upgrades and a new 5 blade MT propeller both with about 160 hours on them. 

[Skates97]

14 hours ago, MIm20c said:

That one looks really nice!  I don’t need six seats, I don’t need six seats, I don’t need six seats...

Neither does my hangar neighbor, just him and his wife, never had any children, 99% of the time it's just the two of them, but he loves his A36. 

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, Tim Jodice said:

Are you are referring to this one?

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/192415789/1981-beechcraft-a36-bonanza-turboprop-turboprop-aircraft

It is legit.  It is that cheap because it is due for a hot section inspection. Depending on what it needs can make the cost of a factory engine on an Ovation look like an oil change.

A few speculations, in addition to the hours the engine and propeller are likely is old from a calander standpoint and does not have any of the power mods that increase thermodynamic power or the ability to hold rated power to a higher altitude before it temps out. 

I flew a 1983 model 2 years ago that had old avionics, good but not excellent paint and interior that ended up selling for $510K.  It had a factory engine with all of the upgrades and a new 5 blade MT propeller both with about 160 hours on them. 

How much is a hot section?  I have the number 25k rolling around in my head.  Is that right?

On the upside, once it gets through hot section, that's lots of good flying til the next one in principle,  And while the fuel burn is high, the fuel is cheaper so that helps a bit.  Fast too - but Most of all - its all about turbine reliability.

That said - smart money is on a turbo normalized A36.  But sentimentally, the turbine conversions are very cool.

E

[Tim Jodice]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

How much is a hot section?  I have the number 25k rolling around in my head.  Is that right?

On the upside, once it gets through hot section, that's lots of good flying til the next one in principle,  And while the fuel burn is high, the fuel is cheaper so that helps a bit.  Fast too - but Most of all - its all about turbine reliability.

That said - smart money is on a turbo normalized A36.  But sentimentally, the turbine conversions are very cool.

E

25-35K depending on who does it. that is only the Inspection. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolls-Royce-250-C47B-Helicopter-Engine-4th-Stage-Turbine-Wheel-23066744-/231507157073?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

This is one of many rotating parts. 2K used approximately half way through it cycles. 

I dont know how much new ones are but being half used but serviceable for 2K I bet a new one is 5-6K each X4 and there you have a 50-60K inspection and repair or about the cost of a installed factory engine for an Ovation.

I really want one of these but it is hard for the numbers to work hence why there aren't many of them. 

If you take the average 50-100 hour a year owner pilot you can run a piston twin for less all in.

An easy to do example of a bad day is, you go out to your turbine bonanza and the battery is a little low but you think it is good enough and you attempt  to start it and fail to notice how long it is sitting in the time limited temperature zone that is just seconds and you just severely damaged your engine. While you can do that to any turbine the Rolls-Royce are easy  to do that to and a pt6 on a Piper Meridian is hard to do.

I tried to find the source that I found a few years ago but at that time a hot start repair to that engine is around 150K. or about the cost of two turbo charged piston engines.

hang two new engines on your twin and it's value just went up. repair a hot start and it's value went down because it suggests that you don't know how to take care of a turbine engine almost like damage history.

[Schllc]

29 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

How much is a hot section?  I have the number 25k rolling around in my head.  Is that right?

On the upside, once it gets through hot section, that's lots of good flying til the next one in principle,  And while the fuel burn is high, the fuel is cheaper so that helps a bit.  Fast too - but Most of all - its all about turbine reliability.

That said - smart money is on a turbo normalized A36.  But sentimentally, the turbine conversions are very cool.

E

it isn’t like a pt-6 hot section parts are timed out and the hot section is a fixed price of $75k. 
I looked at that one in person, hasn’t flown much in the last five or so years. 
paint is decent, interior is rough, and the avionics are pretty dated. 
It does have a decent useful load,  but still, three hours is about the max for planning purposes. 
it’s tempting, I think they keep it annual, but don’t fly it much because the hot section is only a few hours away.  It didn’t occur to me to ask, but it it may be in a 135, which is why the HSI is important. 

[NJMac]

I'm also digging on this one.  https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=BEECHCRAFT&model_group=BEECHCRAFT+36+BONANZA+SERIES&model=A36+BONANZA+36&listing_id=2387661&s-type=aircraft

 

If it's not under contract, I'll fly from the first bo to this one on Saturday to check it out too.  Having TKS already seems like the way to go.  It's ready for a G3X and GFC500 when the king dies.  Makes me worry though.  500 hrs on new engine but about 18 years since new.  That's not much flight time on that engine. 

Best thing is the kid isn't due til Sept so we have some time to work this out. 

[NJMac]

Another vent on the classlessness of the Cirrus broker.  She replied to my rejection that I'd need to pay ferry costs to get that plane from Mi-Oh-Mi when clearly the add says it's at her airport. I don't understand how she claims 35 unit sales a month with customer service like this. Pee on them.

[Tim Jodice]

20 minutes ago, Schllc said:

It didn’t occur to me to ask, but it it may be in a 135, which is why the HSI is important. 

Legally flying part 91 you don't need to do a HSI but unless you are on a trend monitoring program your really should.

Based on the research I did a few years ago I came out with the same information that is generally accepted in the industry and that is turbine engines are more reliable than piston. BUT when they do fail it is usually a complete falure. piston engines do have problems more frequently but many times are not complete failure.

Last year I learned that even with only 3 cylinders running I doesn't take alot of power to nurse a J to an airport.

Alot has to do with the fact that turbine engine are usually held to a high maintenance standard such as HSI that are technically not required but are done anyway. 

Cape Air runs about 80 402s with turbo Continentals. The last engine failure I rember is when they tried running their engines at 2100 RPM and broke a crankshaft causing a service bulletin not to run certain engines below 2300 rpm. But otherwise with the high standards that they hold those engines to results in WAY above piston engine reliability. 

[aviatoreb]

Just now, NJMac said:

Another vent on the classlessness of the Cirrus broker.  She replied to my rejection that I'd need to pay ferry costs to get that plane from Mi-Oh-Mi when clearly the add says it's at her airport. I don't understand how she claims 35 unit sales a month with customer service like this. Pee on them.

Boy oh boy - you dodged a bullet.  I mean with this kind of awful service, dishonest and nastiness - what actual problems with the airplane, the sale or what not were you going to find mid stream in the process or even after purchase if you had actually moved forward?!  Saw dust in the engine?

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, Schllc said:

it isn’t like a pt-6 hot section parts are timed out and the hot section is a fixed price of $75k. 
I looked at that one in person, hasn’t flown much in the last five or so years. 
paint is decent, interior is rough, and the avionics are pretty dated. 
It does have a decent useful load,  but still, three hours is about the max for planning purposes. 
it’s tempting, I think they keep it annual, but don’t fly it much because the hot section is only a few hours away.  It didn’t occur to me to ask, but it it may be in a 135, which is why the HSI is important. 

yeah - turbine always turns my head but I know as you point out - the costs are crazy high.  And there is likely no such thing as a reasonably priced turbine to operate.  Which leaves these turbine bonanza's strangely situated.  If I ever might go turbine -unlikely - but if so - the more obvious way is to know it takes biting a bullet and just do it for real - a jet prop or meridian seem to be the first real entry step into a turbine.  And that is way more expensive than the discussion here.  

[MIm20c]

20 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Boy oh boy - you dodged a bullet.  I mean with this kind of awful service, dishonest and nastiness - what actual problems with the airplane, the sale or what not were you going to find mid stream in the process or even after purchase if you had actually moved forward?!  Saw dust in the engine?

The crazy thing is they / she is like a huge version of Jimmy. Looks like cirrus buyers will put up with that crap...I know Mooney owners wouldn’t. 

I’d tell them to take better listing pictures next time and have a nice Easter.  If she strips the money out of your deposit let us know so we can all call them up and praise them for their wonderful customer service. 

[Davidv]

50 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Another vent on the classlessness of the Cirrus broker.  She replied to my rejection that I'd need to pay ferry costs to get that plane from Mi-Oh-Mi when clearly the add says it's at her airport. I don't understand how she claims 35 unit sales a month with customer service like this. Pee on them.

I would tell them what they can do with that bill.

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, Tim Jodice said:

Legally flying part 91 you don't need to do a HSI but unless you are on a trend monitoring program your really should.

Based on the research I did a few years ago I came out with the same information that is generally accepted in the industry and that is turbine engines are more reliable than piston. BUT when they do fail it is usually a complete falure. piston engines do have problems more frequently but many times are not complete failure.

Last year I learned that even with only 3 cylinders running I doesn't take alot of power to nurse a J to an airport.

Alot has to do with the fact that turbine engine are usually held to a high maintenance standard such as HSI that are technically not required but are done anyway. 

Cape Air runs about 80 402s with turbo Continentals. The last engine failure I rember is when they tried running their engines at 2100 RPM and broke a crankshaft causing a service bulletin not to run certain engines below 2300 rpm. But otherwise with the high standards that they hold those engines to results in WAY above piston engine reliability. 

As it was explained to me, it’s a mandatory HSI for this engine simply because of the timed out parts. This engine was a helicopter engine that was adopted for airplane use, which is why it is temperature  limited, by altitude rather than torque. I didn’t find the $75,000 hot section out of line, because it’s basically equivalent to a 1600 hour tbo. 
The fact that no other auto pilot can be put in nor TKS be added is what queerered the deal for me.

I don’t think the GFC 500 can be added after the turbine, it would’ve had to be done prior to the turbine being installed.
So even upgrades are limited on this particular model.

[NJMac]

52 minutes ago, Davidv said:

I would tell them what they can do with that bill.

Yes, that and their 20 gals av gas and the CFI they threw at me. 

[NJMac]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

I’d tell them to take better listing pictures next time and have a nice Easter.  If she strips the money out of your deposit let us know so we can all call them up and praise them for their wonderful customer service. 

Is give this a like but I'm plumb out of them today 

[Tim Jodice]

16 minutes ago, Schllc said:

As it was explained to me, it’s a mandatory HSI for this engine simply because of the timed out parts. 

Robinson helicopters are the same way. They say that at a certain number of hours(2000 I think) the whole helicopter needs to be overhauled. But they don't to keep the FAA happy. Insurance might think otherwise but someone simply needs to sign it off. I know 1 person that does that.

I personally wouldn't. I am no mechanical engineer but I respect the ones that are and think that at 2000 hours the rotors on a helicopter have served their useful (safe with a margin) life. I feel the same way about turbine engine parts.

WARNING RANT AHEAD In my experience so few people have respect for their propellers.

The shop I use takes care of 2 older Mooneys with the prop hub AD. they still do the eddy current test. If I remember right that AD is from 2005 or so. That means that it has been at least 16 years since overhaul. A Cessna 310 that goes there has Threaded McCauley props that also have a AD on them and it has been 24 years since overhaul! 

I think adhering to the 5-6 year's factory recommended overhaul is a bit to soon for most people flying 50-100 hours a year but 10 years seems reasonable with respect for corrosion.

The airplane that never leaves Arizona doesn't have that concern but many others do.

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, NJMac said:

Another vent on the classlessness of the Cirrus broker.  She replied to my rejection that I'd need to pay ferry costs to get that plane from Mi-Oh-Mi when clearly the add says it's at her airport. I don't understand how she claims 35 unit sales a month with customer service like this. Pee on them.

I bought my Cirrus from Jaimie and had a good experience but that was 15 years ago. 

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

If I had 300k in my pocket - I think I would eye that turbine bonanza asking at 275.  I wonder if it is legit?

Anyway besides the turbine on the nose, its otherwise a bonanza - cost wise I mean.

Reliability wise - I would be happier driving a single engine turbine at night than a parachute airplane at night.

the secret in the ad was the due date on the hot section inspection....

Similar to TBO coming due... (?) for a turbine...

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

11 hours ago, N231BN said:

I emailed a salesman at CAV Ice this week regarding FIKI certification on A36 Bonanzas.

 

Did they state what basic ice protection would cost to add to the 36?  

[Tim Jodice]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Did they state what basic ice protection would cost to add to the 36?  

As a reference a Mooney costs $72,000 installed. 

[N231BN]

I was inquiring as to the cost to upgrade an existing system to FIKI. There are many variables but an estimate for a particular A36 was around 26k depending on labor.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N231BN said:

I was inquiring as to the cost to upgrade an existing system to FIKI. There are many variables but an estimate for a particular A36 was around 26k depending on labor.

Wow- 26k for a bonanza but 72k for a mooney? Why such a dramatic price variability?

[Hank]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Wow- 26k for a bonanza but 72k for a mooney? Why such a dramatic price variability?

Looks to me like it's 26K to upgrade a Bo from inadvertent to FIKI, and 72K to install from nothing on a Mooney (but is it FIKI or not? What is "basic ice protection"?).

[Tim Jodice]

$72,000 is a new FIKI system installed on a Mooney. 

Bonanzas may be different but to turn a inadvertent system to a FIKI on a Mooney requires removing the existing system and replacing everything.