M20J Acrobatics

[AerostarDriver]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

BDP,

Does this look familiar?

O540 powered M20A... that would be interesting...

-a-

 

Unrelated to the OP's, post the link to the flying article is a great read.

[carusoam]

5 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said:

Unrelated to the OP's, post the link to the flying article is a great read.

Easy to get side tracked with the awesome experience that some MSers have and share...  I had to look it up...

Since I did... it got shared...  

 

Fantastic shared experience, Ben!

I didn’t even think about the instruments going through those motions... that would be really tough for the mechanical ones... and pretty unknown for the electronic ones...

Best regards,

-a-

[bfreelove]

11 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I didn’t even think about the instruments going through those motions... that would be really tough for the mechanical ones... and pretty unknown for the electronic ones...

Best regards,

-a-

I did some instruction in a Cessna 152 Aerobat early in my career that had standard (non-caging) gyros.  They needed overhauling pretty routinely, and I would never fly IMC with them after seeing them get rung out.  Often after a spin you'd be staring at the complete backside of the mechanism with the horizon facing the firewall.  

Modern IMU/AHRS systems vary on how well they do.  I've heard Garmin's G3X can deal with full bore unlimited aerobatics and not get tumbled, but most can't keep up.  The Dynon system we used in our Red Bull Air Race airplane didn't handle any aggressive maneuvering at all.  We would rely on our tracking system in the track that had very expensive IMU/AHRS chips and could keep up and track the airplane position to within a meter and the attitude within a tenth of a degree even with high roll rates and over 12G.  I'd love to have a system with that setup in my Mooney for IFR, but admittedly it's a bit overkill for that application.  

Ben

[Blackroc]

Barrel roll in a Mooney?

 

 

[Ibra]

Only in modified 35 Bonanzas, the T34C 

I doubt I would do 1G roll M20J but I trust it can loop and stay strong, twice or even triple times, obviously it’s easy to spin or overspeed an M20J when you pitch & roll too much, so maybe worth wearing a parachute  Funnily enough all aircrafts with wide speed ranges and strong ailerons can do 1G rolls in good hands without noticing all within the approved G-V enveloppe, that goes from gliders to Shrike twin Commanders, Boeing’s & Concordes (if you can roll all these why not a Mooney )

Not Aerobatics, but anytime I teach someone on the new gadgets like G1000, I make sure they can see the chevrons all within 0G-1G otherwise these things glitch, it helps with situational awareness 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Ibra

[takair]

46 minutes ago, bfreelove said:

I think it was '84.  The pilots were the late Charlie Hillard (the first American pilot to win the World Aerobatic Championships), and Gene Soucy (3x US champ and World level pilot).  I had a great conversation with Gene about this last year when I was telling him about buying my Mooney.  The show was sponsored by the factory, and they Charlie kept his for some time.  They were both 231s.  

I flew aerobatics for a living for about fifteen years.  I have zero interest in flying aerobatics in my Mooney.  Why break the rules and beat up my airplane (not to mention trash the "swiss watch" gyros) when there are plenty of way more suitable airframes that are infinitely more fun to throw around?  Modern high performance aerobatic monoplanes are an amazing experience and almost impossible to break (you'll hurt yourself way before the airplane complains).  Find a good aerobatic school and have at it.  

Ben

Great insight Ben.  Did some snooping and your credentials say alot!  
 

I seem to recall there being some grainy video of that performance, but can’t locate it now.  It seems they only did a limited number of air shows in the Mooney.  Did Gene offer any insight on what it was like to fly those shows in the Mooney?  Did it not catch on as an act?  It is kind of cool seeing what an expert can do with an every day airplane....although I think they re-ticket them as experimental for that purpose.  Another one I recall was Jim Franklin in the Aerostar....which was kind of cool.

[bfreelove]

10 minutes ago, takair said:

Great insight Ben.  Did some snooping and your credentials say alot!  
 

I seem to recall there being some grainy video of that performance, but can’t locate it now.  It seems they only did a limited number of air shows in the Mooney.  Did Gene offer any insight on what it was like to fly those shows in the Mooney?  Did it not catch on as an act?  It is kind of cool seeing what an expert can do with an every day airplane....although I think they re-ticket them as experimental for that purpose.  Another one I recall was Jim Franklin in the Aerostar....which was kind of cool.

Gene said they really enjoyed flying the airplanes, and it was pretty descent for formation work.  I'm not sure how many shows they did, may have even just been Oshkosh that year.  I'd love to see the video if it exists!  It sounded like the factory wanted to show how strong the airplane was.  Charlie liked the airplane so much he bought it.  I'm sure they put them into experimental exhibition category for the demo and had a good look over before re-certifying.  We did something similar with the Columbia 400 in 2006, 2007, had to keep a log with all the G loads and show that it was never flown outside the utility category limits before the certification was restored.  

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, Blackroc said:

Barrel roll in a Mooney?

 

 

It looks more like an aileron roll. A barrel roll is actually a combination of a loop and a roll and involves heading changes. For an aileron roll, the pitch comes first, then the roll. For a barrel roll, the pitch and roll come together and are coordinated throughout the maneuver. 

Skip

[RobertGary1]

I used to teach jn a Decathlon. I was surprised the uncage gyros seemed ok but I wouldn’t fly Imc with them. 

[PT20J]

6 minutes ago, bfreelove said:

Gene said they really enjoyed flying the airplanes, and it was pretty descent for formation work.  I'm not sure how many shows they did, may have even just been Oshkosh that year.  I'd love to see the video if it exists!  It sounded like the factory wanted to show how strong the airplane was.  Charlie liked the airplane so much he bought it.  I'm sure they put them into experimental exhibition category for the demo and had a good look over before re-certifying.  We did something similar with the Columbia 400 in 2006, 2007, had to keep a log with all the G loads and show that it was never flown outside the utility category limits before the certification was restored.  

Saw Gene fly his Christen Eagle solo one year at the Watsonville airshow. Man his lines were crisp.

[carusoam]

How I know my Mooney doesn’t do aero...

One of the quirky differences between a Mooney and a typical aerobatic airplane...

Control surfaces aren’t very big, and they don’t move very far...

Great for flying in IMC...   not very quick at changing attitude or roll...

The Aerobatic Mooney built for the air force competition... received a different wing/control surfaces... PMax mentioned lately, the wing getting swapped for something more user friendly...

 

So...

 

How I know I don’t do aero...

while you find yourself pointing at the ground and accelerating faster than usual....  you find yourself in a tough spot...

Adjust rapidly to avoid hitting the ground...

Adjust slowly to avoid over stressing the plane...

And there isn’t much control available before exceeding maneuvering speed...

 

There is plenty to keep your eyes on... inside and out...

+1 for proper training...

 

Manufacturers and their advertising...  always cool to show what the plane can do... in the right hands... with the right skill... and proper instrumentation...

In the automotive world....there is always the last line... professional driver on a closed course, don’t do this at home... etc...

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

 

5 hours ago, Schllc said:

I doubt anyone who would try those maneuvers, would be foolish enough to post it publicly on a forum.

 

Case in point

 

38 minutes ago, Blackroc said:

Barrel roll in a Mooney?

 

 

 

[David Lloyd]

  The Dynon system we used in our Red Bull Air Race airplane didn't handle any aggressive maneuvering at all.  

Dynon is limited to 150 degrees per second.  And that may be combined pitch and roll.  Easy to do more than that with some airplanes.  Roll to the left in the RV exceeded that, the horizon would just lag behind for a couple seconds, not a big deal.  Same for pitch.  Now if you're flying something that would roll 720 degrees per second,  not sure if it would lag or give up.

[BDPetersen]

Carusaom, you found the story. Thanks. 
Bfreelove, my son Ben never mentioned you had a Mooney connection. He enjoys your advice. 

[kerry]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

BDP,

Does this look familiar?

O540 powered M20A... that would be interesting...

-a-

 

I've always wanted to upgrade my M20A to a O-540.  Bill Wheat told me the 250 HP wood wing was the best Mooney he ever flew.

[carusoam]

13 minutes ago, kerry said:

I've always wanted to upgrade my M20A to a O-540.  Bill Wheat told me the 250 HP wood wing was the best Mooney he ever flew.

pretty close to flying a Mooney Missile..! 
 

Mr. Wheat was fantastic!

Mr. Wheat knows (knew) Mooneys...

Best regards,

-a-

[bfreelove]

1 hour ago, BDPetersen said:

Bfreelove, my son Ben never mentioned you had a Mooney connection. He enjoys your advice. 

Small world!  Tell him I said hello.  I've always wanted a Mooney and was able to get one a few years ago (finally got my A&P so owning certified was a bit more doable).    

[Minivation]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the TX-1 yet. Also known as the MT20. In the early 1980s the USAF was looking for a replacement for the Cessna T-41 (militarized 172/175) so Mooney created a variant of the M20K with a sliding canopy and some hardpoints on the wings. The project was not a success and ultimately the USAF opted to continue with further variants of the T-41 at this time, resulting in the T-41D, basically a military Hawk XP.

Sometime down the road however, the USAF shifted over to the "Enhanced Flight Screener" concept, so Mooney created another oddball airplane that I'm sure a lot of MSers know about - the M20T Predator (N20XT) - as their entry in 1991. Ultimately, the Slingsby T67 Firefly won the competition but that type was withdrawn from service in the early 2000s after a series of fatal accidents and the USAF's philosophy change to discontinue the whole ab initio thing. As for the M20T, it was kept with Mooney into the 2010s but last I heard was Don Maxwell bought it and is supposedly restoring it in Longview.

Regarding aerobatics - legal issues aside, given the fact that Mooney was able to whip out not one, but two military contenders without any crazy redesign hints at a good possibility that the structure of the airframe is suitable for mild aerobatics. (The TX-1 even had hardpoints, which implies that the wing was capable of taking on additional loads and withstand extended positive/negative load factors). Another testament to the (surmised) structural capability of the M20 design is that the type has gone from 2450lbs max gross to almost 3400lbs max gross with minimal changes apart from extending the fuselage and slight increase in wingspan.

That said, I think the biggest concern would be, as others have already pointed out, (1) roll performance, (2) spin characteristics, and (3) the slipperiness of the plane.

(1) The M20 features short-span, wide-chord ailerons that do not provide clean rolling characteristics. I've worked on a few Helios (notorious for their huge barn door ailerons) and although I haven't flown one, their turning characteristics are ... interesting, enough to the point that Helio had to design interceptors (sort of like spoilers) into the wing to counter adverse yaw (and to provide additional control at low speeds). So although we have that video of someone "aileron rolling" their Mooney, we can see that it's a pretty terrible one that involves a lot of nosing up before even getting to the roll itself in order to avoid ending the maneuver at a -40 degree attitude. The Mooney's flight controls are another thing - (a) the controls are spring-loaded, which prevents the pilot from "feeling" the aerodynamic state of the aircraft, and (b) the aileron/rudder are correlated, which sort of defeats the purpose of certain aerobatic maneuvers.

(2) Many others here have pointed out that M20s have relatively nasty spin characteristics. Not the worst, but not like a Cessna or Piper where one can simply let go of the controls and the plane starts flying again. I suspect this has a lot to do with the M20's relatively small vertical stabilizer size, coupled with limited rudder travel. Note that the M20T Predator utilizes a noticeably longer vertical stabilizer and rudder assembly compared to a standard M20J, likely in order to combat this issue.

(3) Lastly, the very thing that makes the M20 such a crazy good personal X/C machine is also what likely makes it a terrible aerobatics machine - forward aerodynamic efficiency. Coming from flying Citabrias, 172s and PA-28s where you could easily chop the power 5 miles from your destination and drop from 5000ft AGL down to traffic pattern altitude, the single most disruptive characteristic during my checkout on the M20 was descent planning, simply because the airplane is so clean that a standard -300ft/nm profile is enough to keep the speed up. I can only imagine what the airspeed would do at -50 degrees nose down. Perhaps with careful planning and excellent execution the plane may be able to pull off some basic loops, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's about it.

[carusoam]

For more regarding the latest on the Predator...

We need to find @Pmaxwell(Paul)

If you haven’t seen it...

 

I hope this meets your expectations...

-a-

 

[Skates97]

Speaking about quickly exceedingly Vne, Bob Kromer spoke at the last Mooney Summit. One of the things he talked about was spins and why Mooney did not pursue spin certification. He showed some great videos of test flights. Bob said that a Mooney recovers per standards, but in testing they found that it will easily exceed Vne in the near vertical dive that results from the spin so they did not pursue certification. 

 

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The Mooney will do all of those maneuvers. The problem is if you screw up, the recovery has to be perfect. The Mooney spins violently and if inverted it is almost impossible to recover unless you are perfect. But you screwed up in the first place so you are not perfect.

That cracked me up, thanks! 

[Flash]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

BDP,

Does this look familiar?

O540 powered M20A... that would be interesting...

-a-

 

I have only one word to say after reading this: WOW!

[Brian E.]

17 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Although, not a Mooney....take a look at this video.

Christy is an ATP from the DFW area who leased back her plane.  Some guy took it out for a flight and posted pics of him doing aerobatics in a Cherokee Warrior II.  If you need, skipping to about 4:20 or so in the video shows the pics.

Any I get concerned when someone else makes a firm landing.  Inverted in a new level of anger and distrust...ohhhh my.

[HIghpockets]

17 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Aerobatic Mooney...it's called a SIAI-Marchetti SF.260. Go find one and have a blast.

 

I have one hour of dual in a SF 260. Flew AirCombat out of FRG 30 years ago.

[Ibra]

7 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Speaking about quickly exceedingly Vne, Bob Kromer spoke at the last Mooney Summit. One of the things he talked about was spins and why Mooney did not pursue spin certification.

One can easily notice how hard to keep nose from falling to the ground after crosswind landings and how far it drops pointing to ground after rudder induced wing drop on quick stall...

I am sure on M20J if one keeps pro spin controls going it will not make the beautiful flat spin rotations with stable 60kts 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Ibra