Educational Research for Buying

[marty7012]

Hello everyone!

I'm a new member here at the referral of a reddit post.

I've researched buying a plane before but never had a true mission and had trouble moving in the right direction. As we get older, things start to clear up a little bit more.

Mission: Two people (<350lb) based in Kansas with a goal of being able to fly to visit family and friends on opposite ends of the country (CA, ID, IN, GA, etc) with a few days worth of luggage. Ranges vary 400-1200 nmi (fuel stops are assumed for longer trips) Speed before economy for the longer trips, but also trying to remain somewhat under a conservative 15gal/hr burn

Pilot: currently 100 hr PP awaiting military flight school training dates (no IR/ME yet). Currently living in the panhandle and working in Huntsville, AL. Would love to meet with anyone for coffee and educational conversation about Mooney as I know very little aside from spotting one on a ramp!

Budget: $100k-$150k for the time being, may increase if able as the purchase grows closer (I think this is going to be a difficult budget for the ranges unless I want to travel at 110 kts for 12 hours)

I have been looking at the some experimental/homebuilts but the wife is concerned about the Experimental label (I've tried to explain it). I like experimental for the reduced restrictions on what you can do to the aircraft and the more affordable upgrades later, but what are the logical arguments for certified over experimental?

What may be my options to consider; what kind of realistic annual maintenance costs to expect for that option; availability of parts for the option; a good source for calculating mx and operating budgets; any any general education on this pursuit; or potential considerations I may not be thinking about going this route. Wife is also very concerned on aircraft age (tried to explain this one away too, but she requests it be newer than 1994)

Thank you in advance and I look forward to hearing and learning from you all!

-Marty

[KLRDMD]

9 minutes ago, marty7012 said:

Mission: Two people (<350lb) based in Kansas with a goal of being able to fly to visit family and friends on opposite ends of the country (CA, ID, IN, GA, etc) with a few days worth of luggage. Ranges vary 400-1200 nmi (fuel stops are assumed for longer trips) Speed before economy for the longer trips, but also trying to remain somewhat under a conservative 15gal/hr burn

Pilot: currently 100 hr PP awaiting military flight school training dates (no IR/ME yet). Currently living in the panhandle and working in Huntsville, AL. Would love to meet with anyone for coffee and educational conversation about Mooney as I know very little aside from spotting one on a ramp!

Budget: $100k-$150k for the time being, may increase if able as the purchase grows closer (I think this is going to be a difficult budget for the ranges unless I want to travel at 110 kts for 12 hours)

I have been looking at the some experimental/homebuilts but the wife is concerned about the Experimental label (I've tried to explain it). I like experimental for the reduced restrictions on what you can do to the aircraft and the more affordable upgrades later, but what are the logical arguments for certified over experimental?

What may be my options to consider; what kind of realistic annual maintenance costs to expect for that option; availability of parts for the option; a good source for calculating mx and operating budgets; any any general education on this pursuit; or potential considerations I may not be thinking about going this route. Wife is also very concerned on aircraft age (tried to explain this one away too, but she requests it be newer than 1994)

If you can stretch your budget a bit, Jimmy has a nice one coming in a few weeks.

1994 M20J 'MSE'

2625 Total Time.

'0' SMOH

'0' SNEW Prop (Hartzell 2-Blade 'Top Prop')

NEW Garmin GFC-500 Autopilot.

NEW Garmin G-5 EHSI.

NEW Garmin G-5 Attitude Indicator.

NEW GTX-345 ADS-B In and Out.

NEW JPI-EDM 900 Primary Instrumentation.

NEW GMA-345 Audio Panel with Bluetooth.

(That's about, $90,000 in new avionics, engine and prop currently being installed!).

Garmin GNS-530W.

Garmin GNS-430W.

Very Good Paint (New Paint in 2006 in a Modern Scheme).

Nice Tan Leather Interior.

Damage history details on request. 

Fresh Annual Inspection by Maxwell. 

$179,000. Available Mid-February.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Marty!

Reddit is a pretty busy place this week... GME vs. the Shorts....

It doesn’t matter how you got here... but...

You came to the right place...

About that 1200nm range... 

• 130gal tanks are an option, 100gal is standard for long bodies....
• 7hour legs are pretty long
• people that fear the word ‘Experimental’ posted in a plane, may not like 7hr legs at first... 

 

Now...

If you like...

1) Speed

2) Efficiency

3) Comfortable for four, super comfortable for two... (remember that Gatorade bottle?) 

4) Factory built to last for several decades...

5) If you stop for fuel... Mooneys can and do fly across the Atlantic Ocean...  how far do you want to go?

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Hank]

@marty7012, pretty much any non-turbo Mooney will run well under 15 gph. All letters A - J should be in your budget, but avionics will nake a huge difference in price. Maybe a distressed R (Ovation), but there are no bargains in aviation.

Look at your proposed trips and figure the fuel load that each plane will require, and how much useful load is left for you, your wife and baggage. Note that with some non-Mooney aircraft, the CG moves rearward as fuel burns off, limiting your ability to use all of the fuel taking up payload.

Many Mooneys run 140-160 knots on 9-10 gph. Useful loads vary some between models, but can vary more between individual planes depending on what previous owners have installed. @201er has installed long range tanks on his J, and he flies 10-12 hour legs at ~150 KTAS. That's a long way, and much more time than I want to spend in the cockpit without getting up and walking around. Expect the 6-cylinder engines to run 11-12 gph and 170-180 KTAS.

So many options, so many choices . . . . Even my little C will carry fuel for almost 6 hours, just 52 gallons or 8.5 gph cruising at 9500 msl, with useful load of 970 lb or me, full fuel and 470 lb of passengers and gear.   I've gone 4:45 twice, very ready to get out, and onky took 41 gallons to refill (12 gallons remaining is another 1:20 flying time, or 5 hours plus 1 hour reserve).  

Now you know why Mooneys are called the best bang for your buck in general aviation. I could be enticed upstate to H'ville if lunch is available at the airport . . . . But you probably want a mid-body Mooney, not a short body. The difference is 6" back seat leg room and 6" baggage space, but the same 120 lb. baggage area weight limit. Frint seat space is tbe same, but the longer planes let you slide the front seat back another inch or two.

[spistora]

Where in Kansas will you be based?

[marty7012]

@carusoam reddit has been...a heck of a roller coaster. Thank you for the welcome.

The 7 hour legs are definitely long and I would anticipate stopping after 3-4 hours when not flying solo. I typically do my drive from HSV to Panama City in 5.5 hours without stopping unless I forgot to fill the truck first so it wouldn't be too much different for me. Neither of us are large people so I think the narrowness of the Mooney body that I've heard about won't be much of an issue.  ICT to MRY would be the longest and probably only a once a year trip, otherwise trips will be 500-700 for range

 

@KLRDMD it sounds like a phenomenal aircraft and fantastically equipped, but may be a bit sooner (and slightly over cap) for right now, but I very much appreciate the heads up and will keep an eye out for the listing!

 

@Hank that would be fantastic to have a chat with you. I'll probably be driving back down to the panhandle sometime early Feb and could swing by since I pass near Montgomery if you're available. I don't know of any airport lunches here in HSV yet, but I did just move up here recently

 

@spistora I'm planning to be in or around Wichita - getting hired on to a flying unit out of McConnell.

[gsxrpilot]

With that mission and budget, I'd say any of the Mooneys C through K would be on the list. 

Personally, I'd be looking for a descent M20K or M20J at the high end of the range, or find the nicest E you can at the low end of the range. The K or J can just about do the 1200 miles non-stop with the right weather conditions. But you'd probably rather stop. 

I know you said you'd prefer speed over range for the longer trips. But there's no speed mod quite as fast as skipping a fuel stop.

[carusoam]

As far as cabin width goes...

There seems to be some misrepresentation that goes with that...

Depends on measuring shoulders vs. hips...  Mooneys are actually wider than the competition...   

It’s the laws of physics that keeps them similar in size...

If you and your SIC are both under 300LBs... I think this is a non issue...

Above that, there are strategies that help...

The best way to find out is sit in one... or a Corvette... 

 

If you get a chance... Take Hank up on his offer...  He has great insight on Mooney ownership...

With 100hrs flight experience, you are in a normal range of experience to begin ownership...

The plane that Ken posted above is a nice example of a popular Mooney used for traveling...

There are some planes with the latest and greatest avionics in them... where the instrument panel cost as much as the plane does...

 

If you are in the military... thanks for your service... 

If not... what brings you to Rocket City?

Best regards,

-a-

[dlthig]

I'd wait until you are done with pilot training. Unless you are Guard or Reserve, you don't know what the next few years will look like. UPT will be busy enough.

[marty7012]

@dlthig that's kind of the plan. I will be in a reserve unit so PCS and unknown assignments shouldn't be an issue and I'd hate for the aircraft to just sit for 18-ish months of training unless it was in a partnership. How was your UPT experience (if you went that route) Currently waiting for my IFC to get dates

 

@carusoam I was active for 10 years, 3 years in the TN guard and will be transferring to the reserves hopefully this year. 

As you mentioned, the interior space is pretty much a non-issue. Definitely plan on following up with @Hank for more information. Aviation community is awesome from the small pieces I've experienced and am looking forward to getting more involved.

Was having difficulty finding employment in Panama City and a guard buddy got me a job up here in HSV. So just living on post in my RV and commuting back and forth to spend some time with the wife before either of us get orders to the next assignment (training in my case).

 

@gsxrpilot I'll keep an eye on the K and J models and see if any good opportunities pop up. Thank you!

[irishpilot]

[mention=6941]dlthig[/mention] that's kind of the plan. I will be in a reserve unit so PCS and unknown assignments shouldn't be an issue and I'd hate for the aircraft to just sit for 18-ish months of training unless it was in a partnership. How was your UPT experience (if you went that route) Currently waiting for my IFC to get dates
 
[mention=7104]carusoam[/mention] I was active for 10 years, 3 years in the TN guard and will be transferring to the reserves hopefully this year. 
As you mentioned, the interior space is pretty much a non-issue. Definitely plan on following up with [mention=6921]Hank[/mention] for more information. Aviation community is awesome from the small pieces I've experienced and am looking forward to getting more involved.
Was having difficulty finding employment in Panama City and a guard buddy got me a job up here in HSV. So just living on post in my RV and commuting back and forth to spend some time with the wife before either of us get orders to the next assignment (training in my case).
 
[mention=11970]gsxrpilot[/mention] I'll keep an eye on the K and J models and see if any good opportunities pop up. Thank you!

I'd also avoid trying to deal with the plane hassle while in UPT. Although you are already hired to the unit, UPT is filled with long days and lots of studying. Weekends are for building friendships with your classmates and prepping for Monday's sim/flight event.

Rent when you want to scratch the itch and continue narrowing down your plane requirements, so that when you are finished with FTU, you'll be ready to buy.

Plane ownership requires a time investment for currency flying, mx scheduling, dealing with unexpected parts breaking, etc. The commodity you won't have in UPT is time.

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[201Steve]

Pertaining to the extra time spent in ownership, everyone is certainly different, but I spend quite a bit of time being an owner. Whether tinkering with imperfect things, studying the querks of your bird, diagnosing problems, organizing MX, MX logistics, washing, cleaning, fiddling, weekend bright ideas, oil changes, whispering sweet nothings, ad infinitum. It’s more than I would have thought, but I’m probably over the top about it, too. 

[marty7012]

@irishpilot That's the approach I'm taking right now. I've heard UPT is a very intensive year and the general consensus I've received from everyone I've spoken to is as you said; Use Saturday to hang out and unwind and Sunday to study/prep for the next day and week. Wife wants to build a home when we get there and might have dropped a hint that I could do a hangar home on an airfield, but I'm trying to be realistic about that one (not holding my breath). But once we get settled, a small, quick plane would be much easier to travel to family which is all out of state.  Feel free to PM with any tips on prepping for UPT or beyond!

@201Steve I understand that one - spent 3-6 hours every other weekend detailing, cleaning, researching my Boxster back in the day. Would probably end up doing the same with an aircraft!

[carusoam]

Marty, I like the way you think...

Is your wife a project engineer?

Perfect for getting that hangar home built while you are busy 24/7 on those other details...

We have a few hangar homes around here...

Best regards,

 -a-

[Ross Statham]

On 1/30/2021 at 7:17 PM, marty7012 said:

@dlthig that's kind of the plan. I will be in a reserve unit so PCS and unknown assignments shouldn't be an issue and I'd hate for the aircraft to just sit for 18-ish months of training unless it was in a partnership. How was your UPT experience (if you went that route) Currently waiting for my IFC to get dates

 

@carusoam I was active for 10 years, 3 years in the TN guard and will be transferring to the reserves hopefully this year. 

As you mentioned, the interior space is pretty much a non-issue. Definitely plan on following up with @Hank for more information. Aviation community is awesome from the small pieces I've experienced and am looking forward to getting more involved.

Was having difficulty finding employment in Panama City and a guard buddy got me a job up here in HSV. So just living on post in my RV and commuting back and forth to spend some time with the wife before either of us get orders to the next assignment (training in my case).

 

@gsxrpilot I'll keep an eye on the K and J models and see if any good opportunities pop up. Thank you!

I live in Chipley and fly out of the next airfield just north of Panama City, 1J0, so feel free to reach out to me to discover what it’s like to fly here, and job-wise down here too.   We have quite a few Panama City folks that base their planes at 1J0.  My email is stathamross at gmail.  

As you can tell from the responses, you’re going to get a lot of encouragement from some great people on this forum.  Several of us are former active duty as well. Let us know how we can help you!

[spistora]

14 hours ago, marty7012 said:

@irishpilot That's the approach I'm taking right now. I've heard UPT is a very intensive year and the general consensus I've received from everyone I've spoken to is as you said; Use Saturday to hang out and unwind and Sunday to study/prep for the next day and week. Wife wants to build a home when we get there and might have dropped a hint that I could do a hangar home on an airfield, but I'm trying to be realistic about that one (not holding my breath). But once we get settled, a small, quick plane would be much easier to travel to family which is all out of state.  Feel free to PM with any tips on prepping for UPT or beyond!

@201Steve I understand that one - spent 3-6 hours every other weekend detailing, cleaning, researching my Boxster back in the day. Would probably end up doing the same with an aircraft!

Here's a nice lot near Wichita: https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1620-S-Stearman-Dr_Benton_KS_67017_M97664-31076

[marty7012]

@spistora I've had my eye on that lot for quite some time (and I might keep sending it to the wife every few weeks or so). Surprisingly HOAs aren't even that terrible for what kind of homes are in that neighborhood but I believe they have time requirements to begin building a structure so long after purchasing if I read rules correctly.

 

@Ross Statham thank you! I'll be taking some PTO next week down in the panhandle so I'll send you an e-mail here shortly!

 

@carusoam unfortunately she is not. Her career field is related to a niche community of air traffic control. Just a matter to defining budget, needs/wants, builders, and financing. But we'll get there!

[jaylw314]

Welcome!  As noted before most people have suggested J's and K's.  I'd point out if your flying includes the western half of the country, the K might be preferred to get to higher altitudes.  The non-turbo J gets pretty sluggish above 12,000' MSL, while the turbo'd K gets faster above that.  That can be a factor crossing the mountainous areas.

Cost-wise, good J's and K's do fit well within your budget.  A top-of-the-line J might cost about $150k, but solid ones are probably to be had starting at $90k.  Below that there are likely to be "spouse-incompatible" issues.  Surprisingly, the purchase cost of K's seems to be similar or only slightly more, with the desirable top-of-the-line M20K 252 to be had around $160k.

I can speak to J's maintenance-wise.  The scheduled maintenance cost is an annual inspection that is about $250 more than a 182 at my shop.  That's about it.  Everything else is just the expected maintenance on a 35 year old plane.  The unique things we complain about are things like the landing gear pucks, fuel tank leaks and steel frame/wing spar corrosion, but it's not like any other plane doesn't have it's own unique maintenance foibles as well.   There are few (or no) recurring AD's specific to the Mooney airframes, although some have prop/engine AD's.

The one bugaboo is that some mechanics and avionics guys HATE working on Mooney's because everything is so tight and crowded in the engineering spaces.

FWIW, I spent $120k on a moderately equipped (WAAS GPS, basic engine monitor, autopilot and not much else) J with low-time rebuilt motor.  Trips down to Los Angeles are 680 nm and 5:20 hours total, using about 46 gallons of fuel, which leaves a reserve of 18 gal.  I typically cruise at 10,000' at 140 KIAS, burning about 8.7 gph.  I've made one flight to San Diego which is about my max VFR range of 775 nm, which still left me an hour of fuel reserve on landing.

Edited February 2, 2021 by jaylw314

[marty7012]

@jaylw314 great information and some more points to take into consideration during this education journey and beyond. I had not considered turbo models for traveling higher out west but that's a very valid point. Thank you, this has been a fantastic welcome to this community and I can't wait to get more involved.