The Annual From Hell

[JimB]

1 minute ago, CoffeeCan said:

Jim, thanks for the comment. There is no doubt in my mind that a MSC is not infallible. Which is why I’ve talked to SavvyMX about subscribing. I want more than one pair of A&P eyes on my airplane from now on. But I will be using a MSC for the main work moving forward nonetheless. 

Absolutely! Find someone you can work with and trust. Glad you are back flying again. 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, CoffeeCan said:

So, what do I want to do next, you ask? Well, for one thing I want to find a new A&P I can trust for ongoing work. Since the consensus seems to be to fly to GGG, and now that my experiences over the past 2 years have convinced me I simply can’t trust a shop that isn’t a Mooney specialist any more, it looks like I’ll be working with Don Maxwell. (And yes, I’ll post on this forum to see if I can hitch a ride with a fellow Mooney pilot... that’s a great resource I hadn’t thought of.) I’m also thinking of subscribing to Savvy’s maintenance program. Mike Busch’s books and webinars are great, and I’ve only just learned that his company offers this service. Looks like a good investment... any opinions on that here? 

FWIW, keep an ear to the ground and you will likely turn up a good A&P/IA reasonably local to you.   There are a ton of Mooneys on my field, an MSC across town, and nobody that I know goes to the nearby MSC.  I don't think they're a bad shop, I just don't know anybody that bothers to go there.   At least one person I know here goes to KGGG for their annual, but most here get their maintenance and annuals with local A&Ps.  I think we're fortunate to have some very reputable local A&Ps here, though.   A busy GA A&P will often be familiar with Mooneys, I'd expect that to be true in TX.

[BlueDun]

I applaud your irenic and objective response to the feedback you have received, @CoffeeCan. You are a gentleman and provide a  great example to the community here.

I purchased an O3 in early 2019 and was pleased with my thorough pre-buy from a shop that never had worked on the plane. Itresulted in some allowance from the seller for fixing discrepancies. It then turned into an annual and upgrades, once I confirmed purchase. This advice and how to proceed was provided by reading here. Like you, I do a lot of research on Mooneyspace and contribute when I find something valuable.

Like you, I have done some maintenance that was perhaps not strictly necessary and some Mx that caught me by surprise. There was nothing where I could point the finger at someone. Airplanes are expensive.

As a result of some MX experience, time, and the fact this is my first owned airplane, I did I hire Savvy. I have been extremely pleased with their management. I think it is a tremendous value. It does not absolve me of the need to be on top of my Mx, but it is great for me to have a partner.

Final point: For good reasons, the same Mooney shops routinely get mentioned here. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it feels a bit constrained. There are a lot of talented shops and MX. Some turn over ownership and personnel, and I had a very different and positive experience for my pre-buy and first annual with a shop in Texas that has not been mentioned. Nothing later turned up that I thought should have been dealt with and everything, including corrective actions, were conservative and later checked out.

 

[KLRDMD]

14 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

If things align just right, you find an AZ plane for @KLRDMDto look at first, then when he gives you the thumbs up, you have the seller fly it to Maxwell for Pre-purchase/annual. Then you send the money and view the plane in person for the first time when you now own it.

Parker knows of which he speaks. I put an eyeball on the 252 he was looking at and bought.

[CoffeeCan]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

Parker knows of which he speaks. I put an eyeball on the 252 he was looking at and bought.

I will save this advice for future reference!!

[DonMuncy]

This thread is extremely interesting. Pointing out that aircraft owners should not be handing over their plane to the A&P/IA without knowing everything that is going on is good advice. But is also true that when we first become owners, we often don't have much of a choice. I was mostly just lucky buying through All American and having Don Maxwell do the PPI. I had no idea what I was doing. With time, we all get a lot of education, but it takes time and effort. I am actually surprised with how few owners get burned before they have time to learn.

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, DonMuncy said:

This thread is extremely interesting. Pointing out that aircraft owners should not be handing over their plane to the A&P/IA without knowing everything that is going on is good advice. But is also true that when we first become owners, we often don't have much of a choice. I was mostly just lucky buying through All American and having Don Maxwell do the PPI. I had no idea what I was doing. With time, we all get a lot of education, but it takes time and effort. I am actually surprised with how few owners get burned before they have time to learn.

True. Today I rarely allow anyone else to wrench on my plane but when I do I'm there supervising. It took a lot of years and some scary situations before I realized the importance of this.

 

-robert

[carusoam]

Fun things that arise in this thread...

With some insight on how the MS community works most days... but not all days...

1) Everyone has different writing styles and skills...

2) They come from different parts of the Mooney world...

3) Their age ranges from decades younger, to decades older than the guy in the middle...

4) The guy with the shortest response... is often way busier than I am...

Its clear his response was an oft quoted adage about personal safety...

5) It is known that the abbreviation MSC doesn’t stand for very much... no two MSCs are alike... what counts is the people that work there...

6) Some people (read this as Jim ) have had at least one documented terrible experience at an MSC...

7) If you don’t know who you are talking to... and they don’t know you at all...

Are they being mean, brutal, or too busy to write?

8) I read every post... I nearly know every personality behind each post...

9) I also know what happens when I form an opinion about the writer... then meet them in person....

10) MS is a small global community... nobody hangs out here to be mean to the next guy...

Very few people are interested in posting to be mean... around here, mean posts get tagged... people get ejected... the fun wears off...

11) When you don’t understand why somebody said what they said... there is a good chance their writing style isn’t the same as yours...

So...

Who’s post did you not like the most...?

• The dentist’s
• The doctor’s (not the dentist)
• The lawyer’s
• The veteranarian’s
• The mechanic’s
• The engineer’s
• The CFII that organizes an annual safety summit that you are invited to attend...
• The Private Pilot with no additional defining skills.... (not a mechanic, or CFI)

They all gave good input...

But, without knowing who is behind each one... or a little about each writing style that they use...

You may miss the value of what they are sharing...

There are two MSCs in TX...  the importance of the company name fades... the two key people at each MSC were clearly named...

 

Hmmm...

MS is on the internet... but it isn’t the ordinary internet...

Everyone on MS uses a screen name... they may also have a formation flying name... and some have a birth name that they still use... some may have shortened that too...

 

If you look at each post as if somebody is trying to get a message across to you...   you may suddenly realize MS is full up with good people...

You will also realize that most people don’t have the writing skills combined with typing skills and spare time to carry on a long conversation... 

Some people don’t want to be known publicly... for a variety of reasons...

If you want to get to know everybody... find the thread ‘introduce yourself’.

Then write a paragraph at the end...

It is pleasant getting to know everyone...

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

22 hours ago, CoffeeCan said:

Ken, have you looked at a map of Texas? Yes, I'm in TX, but I'm farther from Don than you are from San Diego... 

Still, it's an idea already under consideration. 

One of the lessons is you occasionally need to travel for decent maintenance.  I recall being on field with a Mooney service center (that had a poor reputation for maintenance in general and by personal experience), but I chose to fly 2 hrs to a highly regarded and competent MSC for annuals, and a 10 hr train ride back home. 

[211º]

+1 for SavvyMaintenance - I can't recall the annual cost for sure ($200 +-?) but I quite like it.  And once when I was AOG with a transponder that wouldn't reply, they worked with me to ascertain the solution (and the solution was simple) which probably would have cost me $500 in maintenance investigation.

Using Savvy make me think that I'm getting a bargain by turning me into the guy who charges $1 to place the X on where to hit the machine and $999 to know where to place the X.

I like learning where to place the X.

[Guest]

I for one don’t think it’s fair to blame the OP @CoffeeCan   I commend him for sharing his story.

Many parties were involved and share the responsibility for the situation and outcome.

While it’s fine the say that owners are responsible for the maintenance conducted on their aircraft, we the maintainers are responsible for the completion and the quality of it.  
 

Clarence

[Seth]

22 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Don Maxwell Aviation and SWTA are the only two shops in Texas I'd trust with a pre-buy, annual, and major service & repair.  There are a few others to use in between if you need some work done.  Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Also, they'll be worth the trip from west Texas.  Then catch SWA home from AUS if you leave with Southwest Texas Aviation or fly American home from GGG.

Or find someone near you with a Mooney and swap rides to/from either shop if you have annual inspections due in successive months.

I'm sure post pandemic someone here would love to have a reason to fly and help a fellow Mooney owners drop off/pick up their bird.

-Seth

[Tx_Aggie]

I wouldn’t consider Abilene to be far west Texas, you still have another 300+ miles to go to reach El Paso! 
 

There are a several of us in Midland/Odessa that use Epic Aero for oil changes and the small things, but Don Maxwell for annuals, if you need some regional recommendations. 
 

I am not sure if the Abilene Mooney flyers are in this forum but I believe several are based at ABI also. Abilene aero has helped me on avionics work, haven’t used them for engine work however for what it’s worth. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Tx_Aggie

[AIREMATT]

11 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Before my Mooney, I owned a C-152.  I had the annuals performed by a mechanic my dad and I have been using for 30-40 years.  Those annuals were great; took about 3 days and cost $600.  He did the pre-buy for the Mooney, and let me know both the good and bad about it.  He had already retired from regular maintenance, though, so I had to find a new venue for the first Mooney annual 5 years ago. 

 

I’ve learned varying who works on my airplane a little is a good thing. It has been maintained for well over 30 years by the same A&P (1.5 hour flight away)and he has done a great job. I bought it 6 years ago from a family friend and after a couple years and annuals, decided to get a second opinion on it and gather some information for my own knowledge.
 

I took it to an MSC and had the donuts replaced. Later that year I had them do the annual to get their opinions on the plane and recommendations on maintaining and improving it. My A&P actually encouraged me to get a second set of eyes on it to see if anything had been overlooked. They found it in very good condition and well cared for, reinforcing my view of my A&P and my decision to keep using my A&P off in the distance. They also gave me very good information on things to look out for from a Mooney specialist view point and answered questions I’d amassed and needed explanations for.

I’ve had issues with my local shop trying to solve anything much more involved than oil changes. They are good people trying hard, but just don’t seem to get that Mooneys aren’t the same as the Cessnas they usually work on. 

If you find a good A&P, stick with them and don’t be afraid to let second set of eyes see the plane periodically. I dread the day when he retires...

[jlunseth]

On 12/9/2020 at 8:59 AM, Yetti said:

W&B is one thing.    Equipment list also needs to be updated.    The Equipment List is semi different than the Operations Manual.

Yes, there also, they are in the same section of my POH. My point, though, if I did not make it clear to the OP, is that you will find the w&b (and equipment) changes in the POH, so if you are looking in your logs you are looking in the wrong place. The logs should record what was done, but the w&b in the POH must be changed by the installer and signed off. That is where the pilot looks up basic empty weight, arms, etc. to do the w&b calculation. It would be very strange if equipment were added or subtracted and that fact was never recorded in the POH.

[Yetti]

22 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I for one don’t think it’s fair to blame the OP @CoffeeCan   I commend him for sharing his story.

Many parties were involved and share the responsibility for the situation and outcome.

While it’s fine the say that owners are responsible for the maintenance conducted on their aircraft, we the maintainers are responsible for the completion and the quality of it.  
 

Clarence

My deal with the IA is that it is airworthy until after it crosses his hangar door.  it is good to remember that the Annual Inspection is just that a walk around with a compression test and a little Triflow and grease thrown in.     I like to take the Annual Inspection to focus on a different System in the plane that needs to be R&Red.   Rather than taking the plane apart for a look and putting it back together, Let's take one area apart and work it over then put it back together.   That way over the years things are coming back to life.

 

[CoffeeCan]

On 12/9/2020 at 3:27 PM, DonMuncy said:

This thread is extremely interesting. Pointing out that aircraft owners should not be handing over their plane to the A&P/IA without knowing everything that is going on is good advice. But is also true that when we first become owners, we often don't have much of a choice. I was mostly just lucky buying through All American and having Don Maxwell do the PPI. I had no idea what I was doing. With time, we all get a lot of education, but it takes time and effort. I am actually surprised with how few owners get burned before they have time to learn.

Don, thanks for replying. 

I bought my plane from All American as well, which I still think is/was the smartest decision I made. Jimmy and David are really conscientious guys. I don’t put any of the blame that may be owed on them.

 
You may recall that you were the first MS member I talked to on the phone when I joined up here. Thanks for the warm welcome. 

[CoffeeCan]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

Yes, there also, they are in the same section of my POH. My point, though, if I did not make it clear to the OP, is that you will find the w&b (and equipment) changes in the POH, so if you are looking in your logs you are looking in the wrong place. The logs should record what was done, but the w&b in the POH must be changed by the installer and signed off. That is where the pilot looks up basic empty weight, arms, etc. to do the w&b calculation. It would be very strange if equipment were added or subtracted and that fact was never recorded in the POH.

Right you are, and I meant to make that clear at the outset... the POH had not been updated. Ever. The guys at my last shop did a thorough going over of the logs and the POH. They got replacement pages from Mooney for pages that were damaged by previous owner(s). They corresponded with McCauley, Merlyn, and Turbo-Plus to get missing/incomplete documentation. I spent a number of hours at their shop over the 2.5 months they were working on it to help get the documentation straightened out. 

[CoffeeCan]

19 hours ago, AIREMATT said:

I’ve learned varying who works on my airplane a little is a good thing. It has been maintained for well over 30 years by the same A&P (1.5 hour flight away)and he has done a great job. I bought it 6 years ago from a family friend and after a couple years and annuals, decided to get a second opinion on it and gather some information for my own knowledge.
 

I took it to an MSC and had the donuts replaced. Later that year I had them do the annual to get their opinions on the plane and recommendations on maintaining and improving it. My A&P actually encouraged me to get a second set of eyes on it to see if anything had been overlooked. They found it in very good condition and well cared for, reinforcing my view of my A&P and my decision to keep using my A&P off in the distance. They also gave me very good information on things to look out for from a Mooney specialist view point and answered questions I’d amassed and needed explanations for.

I’ve had issues with my local shop trying to solve anything much more involved than oil changes. They are good people trying hard, but just don’t seem to get that Mooneys aren’t the same as the Cessnas they usually work on. 

If you find a good A&P, stick with them and don’t be afraid to let second set of eyes see the plane periodically. I dread the day when he retires...

Airematt, thanks for the comment. I meant no disrespect to mom & pop A&P shops in my previous remarks, and I’m glad to hear your local shop is doing well for you.

One of the benefits of doing this exercise in self-flagellation here on MS (and many thanks to all y’all who so delightfully pilied on!) is that a lot of kind people have reached out to me to help me work toward a positive way forward out of this difficult time. Y’all know who you are. Thanks a million!

Mike Busch (who I’ve been a great fan of for some time) and his SavvyMX program are about to get a new subscriber today, thanks to some good guidance from Debbie and Paul. And I’ve started to gain the perspective I needed to look at positive solutions rather than being passed off and pointing fingers. This has been a great experience. You Mooniacs are awesome. 

[AIREMATT]

54 minutes ago, CoffeeCan said:

Airematt, thanks for the comment. I meant no disrespect to mom & pop A&P shops in my previous remarks, and I’m glad to hear your local shop is doing well for you.. 

I didn’t think you did.

I just meant if you do find a good Mechanic, MSC or not, work with them to be sure you are getting done only what is needed, or what you want to improve. An occasional trip for service to another quality shop for a second look can help you ensure you are getting that.

Good Luck with the tuned up bird!!

[James Fulginiti]

Happy it all worked out for you, even though it was a painful process. Glad I got to see your plane before you flew it away. They did a really good job and I was impressed how well it was all put together. Hoping mine will be able to keep up with yours when I get it back. Thanks for sharing, I'm learning a lot.

[carusoam]

Congrats on your first post James!

Come back early and often... posts are free.

I gave Coffee a hard time for going too long with out any posts...

Ask some easy questions...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[James Fulginiti]

Thanks! I've been following for the past three years, learned a lot from everyone here. 

Easy questions huh? Ok... 

What's the best place to get an annual?

My engine is run out. Do I go factory rebuilt or engine shop overhaul?

I kid, I kid... I think those have been beat up just in this thread alone. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, James Fulginiti said:

Thanks! I've been following for the past three years, learned a lot from everyone here. 

Easy questions huh? Ok... 

What's the best place to get an annual?

My engine is run out. Do I go factory rebuilt or engine?

These are less important questions than flap usage on takeoff and landing, and where you put the red knob during cruise . . . .

[JimB]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:30 PM, carusoam said:

6) Some people (read this as Jim ) have had at least one documented terrible experience at an MSC...

 

Now, now...  my only point is that using an MSC is not a guarantee. I know all of us Mooney owners would like to think that our aircraft are somehow special (well mine actually is ) and they require someone that specializes in working on them, but really they are just small airplanes. The most expensive and complex parts (engine, avionics, propeller) are common to all small aircraft. The gear and the tail are unique but not terribly complex. A lot of small aircraft have fuel leaks and all metal aircraft are subject to corrosion. And logbooks, records AD research are common to all aircraft. It is certainly helpful to have someone familiar with the service bulletins and airworthiness directives when getting a pre-buy done since it speeds up the process but even the MSC is going to have to do the records research to determine what was done and on a 50 year old aircraft, that can take a lot of time if the records are haphazard. 

Don't get me wrong, it seems that most all of the Mooney Service Centers have a stellar reputation and that means a lot. I just don't think you necessarily have to take your Mooney to one to get great (or even the best) service. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by JimB