Mooney down near Newton, UT

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Did I miss where it said that was how the plane was shut down? Either way, I can also envision plugs fouling from prolonged operations with the throttle closed, the mags on and mixture rich. Plugs could foul during a engine out simulation for all the same reasons they do during ground operations. 

There could have been any number of other failures that caused this problem. All unlikely under most circumstances.

There are several posts in this thread suggesting that these guys pooched this (not suggesting that yours is one of them). Seems to me that minor aircraft damage and unscathed occupants is a pretty reasonable outcome given how little is known about the circumstances.

They landed safely and unharmed.   No matter why the engine wouldn't start or restart or whatever was the issue, they clearly did something right.  Very right.

If it was simply bringing engine to idle to practice simulated emergency landings, our machines are supposed to be able to handle this and then turn back on.  In fact, if there had been an actual engine out, assuming there is still fuel and all, it is supposed to restart.

Something wasn't working, but these guys walked away and that airplane looks like it will fly again.  So kudos to them.

[kortopates]

That's one way to look at it, and the really positive thing is that only aluminum was bent, nobody was hurt in this training incident.

But the FAA says "AIRCRAFT UNABLE TO RESTART ENGINE DURING ENGINE FAILURE SIMULATION, LANDED IN A FIELD AND GEAR COLLAPSED, NEWTON, UT."

Pulling the engine to idle, is not shutting it down - far from it. How it was shutdown we don't know, but the FAA report, which could be wrong says it was shut down. But we also know the engine was shut down no where near gliding distance of an airport. Logan was about 15 mi away. And it also appears based on lack of ADS-B coverage and the low ceilings the shutdown likely occurred  at  a very low altitude of not more than 2000' AGL. That's likely because there are several snippets of partial flight tracks showing the plane is in ADS-B coverage at at only 6600' msl which is just a bit over 2000' agl - but no flight aware track the day of the incident. That's only a couple minutes of glide time - hardly enough time to get the engine restarted after probably setting up to land somewhere and then discover it wouldn't come right back to life as expected.  Why it wouldn't quickly restart is a mystery; especially if it was only a couple of minutes as it appears, but its hard to imagine fouling that quickly or carburetor ice that quickly in such cold dry air.  I do emergency engine out training every week with students from a much higher altitudes  and I'am looking forward to the NTSB reports on this.

[takair]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

That's one way to look at it, and the really positive thing is that only aluminum was bent, nobody was hurt in this training incident.

But the FAA says "AIRCRAFT UNABLE TO RESTART ENGINE DURING ENGINE FAILURE SIMULATION, LANDED IN A FIELD AND GEAR COLLAPSED, NEWTON, UT."

Pulling the engine to idle, is not shutting it down - far from it. How it was shutdown we don't know, but the FAA report, which could be wrong says it was shut down. But we also know the engine was shut down no where near gliding distance of an airport. Logan was about 15 mi away. And it also appears based on lack of ADS-B coverage and the low ceilings the shutdown likely occurred  at  a very low altitude of not more than 2000' AGL. That's likely because there are several snippets of partial flight tracks showing the plane is in ADS-B coverage at at only 6600' msl which is just a bit over 2000' agl - but no flight aware track the day of the incident. That's only a couple minutes of glide time - hardly enough time to get the engine restarted after probably setting up to land somewhere and then discover it wouldn't come right back to life as expected.  Why it wouldn't quickly restart is a mystery; especially if it was only a couple of minutes as it appears, but its hard to imagine fouling that quickly or carburetor ice that quickly in such cold dry air.  I do emergency engine out training every week with students from a much higher altitudes  and I'am looking forward to the NTSB reports on this.

Paul...how low do you typically take the students?  Both as student and instructor, i usually find that if the engine did not recover from extended idle in simulated engine out, I know the only option is often the field that we set up as the emergency site.  I will often set up near a private airstrip, but the student doesn’t always pick it.  Also, will allow for some “clearing” movement of the throttle, but we don’t always know student aircraft like we know our own.  The most nerve wracking point of simulated engine out is that point of pushing in the throttle to recover from the maneuver.  Simulating to an artificial false deck doesn’t seem quite as effective as taking it low.

[Sixstring2k]

Glad they landed safe. Weather the engine was off or not is not the point, they landed safely with no lost of life and that’s the best outcome possible after an engine fails. The engine weather it was because it was shut off and it refused to start or not producing power when it should have it still didn’t do what it was supposed to do, that’s an engine failure. In my experience the faa has sometimes jump to conclusions they are human so let’s wait and see how the investigation will develop before we start putting Darwin as a title to any pilot. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, takair said:

Paul...how low do you typically take the students?  Both as student and instructor, i usually find that if the engine did not recover from extended idle in simulated engine out, I know the only option is often the field that we set up as the emergency site.  I will often set up near a private airstrip, but the student doesn’t always pick it.  Also, will allow for some “clearing” movement of the throttle, but we don’t always know student aircraft like we know our own.  The most nerve wracking point of simulated engine out is that point of pushing in the throttle to recover from the maneuver.  Simulating to an artificial false deck doesn’t seem quite as effective as taking it low.

Good questions Rob, first I have to say I don't do any of this unbriefed in advance. Before the flight, we discuss the engine out emergency glide range and power off landing procedures as well as the expected rate of descent per their POH. This includes how we expect to glide to above an airport if we have excess altitude, then lower the gear and perform 360's abeam our intended point of landing - which is the instrument landing zone a 1000' down the runway (not the threshold so as to give us runway buffer if we came up short). Then we'll go out and do it, combining the emergency glide to the airport, along with the emergency spiral descent down to pattern altitude and then the 180 degree landing. Sounds like a lot of power off - but its not as I'll explain.

So several miles away from an airport (~7-10nm) and more than 5000' AGL we begin with the emergency glide demonstration pulling the throttle to idle. First we don't touch the prop, but trim to best glide and see out descent rate. Being very pitch sensitive this take a couple minutes to see our descent rate settle out to make note of. Now we pull back the prop and watch how the plane essentially accelerates from the decreased drag and again wait for the descent rate to settle out and now compare how well its improved at Vg and we readily see why its so important to pull the prop back. By this time the engine is getting cold, so next up is to demonstrate how we can simulate the best glide descent rate with the gear down and some engine power added to compensate for the increased drag. So we lower the gear and add enough power with the prop back forward to maintain the same descent rate we just verified at Vg but now with some power to warm up the engine - and we continue to glide to the airport in this configuration. Next we're discussing our remaining altitude AGL and distance to the airport as well as use of glide range rings on our iPads to help with our situational awareness of whether we can make the field. If not on a weekend with an unbusy airport, we'll continue the exercise to the airport, spiral down, now with throttle/power back to idle and followed by the 180 power off landing (i'll add some momentary throttle to clear the engine as needed).  On the weekends and sometimes mid-week there is just too much traffic and instead we'll join the traffic pattern land and then do power off 180's to practice the power off landings portion.

We've also discussed that if we have to go around, we won't go to full power right away if oil or CHTs are too cool per POH recommendations,  but will go to minimum power to maintain level flight (~17-18") as the engine warms up enough to go full forward and climb. 

There is never any doubt about the engine nor letting it get too cold. While the student gets real world demonstration of the emergency glide procedure, its results compared to book, the emergency spiral/360's with ability to slow to minimum sink once at the field rather than use best glide and then of course making the power-off landing. The only item missing is the startle factor management from just out of the blue pulling the throttle and saying now what.  That's a different exercise I do but I'll limit that to being high too but won't play that out to low level for multiple reasons. I end that though after trimming for best glide, picking and aiming towards best landing option and going through the engine restart procedure - then we recover while still quite high.  One of my aversions to playing it out low level is that places to even practice ground reference maneuvers in my SOCAL area has gotten hard to come by due to large number of noise complaints. We're often already flying pretty far for a spot away from houses and people to practice ground reference maneuvers as it is.

Edited November 18, 2020 by kortopates

[ZuluZulu]

6 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Good questions Rob, first I have to say I don't do any of this unbriefed in advance. Before the flight, we discuss the engine out emergency glide range and power off landing procedures as well as the expected rate of descent per their POH. This includes how we expect to glide to above an airport if we have excess altitude, then lower the gear and perform 360's abeam our intended point of landing - which is the instrument landing zone a 1000' down the runway (not the threshold so as to give us runway buffer if we came up short). Then we'll go out and do it, combining the emergency glide to the airport, along with the emergency spiral descent down to pattern altitude and then the 180 degree landing. Sounds like a lot of power off - but its not as I'll explain.

So several miles away from an airport (~7-10nm) and more than 5000' AGL we begin with the emergency glide demonstration pulling the mixture to idle. First we don't touch the prop, but trim to best glide and see out descent rate. Being very pitch sensitive this take a couple minutes to see our descent rate settle out to make note of. Now we pull back the prop and watch how the plane essentially accelerates from the decreased drag and again wait for the descent rate to settle out and now compare how well its improved at Vg and we readily see why its so important to pull the prop back. By this time the engine is getting cold, so next up is to demonstrate how we can simulate the best glide descent rate with the gear down and some engine power added to compensate for the increased drag. So we lower the gear and add enough power with the prop back forward to maintain the same descent rate we just verified at Vg but now with some power to warm up the engine - and we continue to glide to the airport in this configuration. Next we're discussing our remaining altitude AGL and distance to the airport as well as use of glide range rings on our iPads to help with our situational awareness of whether we can make the field. If not on a weekend with an unbusy airport, we'll continue the exercise to the airport, spiral down, now with power back to idle and followed by the 180 power off landing (i'll add some momentary throttle to clear the engine as needed).  On the weekends and sometimes mid-week there is just too much traffic and instead we'll join the traffic pattern land and then do power off 180's to practice the power off landings portion.

We've also discussed that if we have to go around, we won't go to full power right away if oil or CHTs are too cool per POH recommendations,  but will go to minimum power to maintain level flight (~17-18") as the engine warms up enough to go full forward and climb. 

There is never any doubt about the engine nor letting it get too cold. While the student gets real world demonstration of the emergency glide procedure, its results compared to book, the emergency spiral/360's with ability to slow to minimum sink once at the field rather than use best glide and then of course making the power-off landing. The only item missing is the startle factor management from just out of the blue pulling the mixture and saying now what.  That's a different exercise I do but I'll limit that to being high too but won't play that out to low level for multiple reasons. I end that though after trimming for best glide, picking and aiming towards best landing option and going through the engine restart procedure - then we recover while still quite high.  One of my aversions to playing it out low level is that places to even practice ground reference maneuvers in my SOCAL area has gotten hard to come by due to large number of noise complaints. We're often already flying pretty far for a spot away from houses and people to practice ground reference maneuvers as it is.

So are you pulling the "mixture to idle" (which, I would think, kills the engine) or did you mean pulling throttle to idle?  It sounds from the rest of your description that you still have power but later mentioned restart procedures, so that's why I ask.

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Missile=Awesome said:

Steingar YOU NEED TO CHECK YOUR FLIPPANT JUDGMENTAL Flapping of your fingers.  YOU WERE NOT THERE.  I was under instruction and experienced one of you DARWIN moments.  If you were standing in front of me you would FEEL my index finger in your chest and my spittle in your eyes.  Feel me?  No smiley face inserted. 

First, bullies don't frighten me. Never have. You can take your attitude somewhere else, like your local schoolyard.  Maybe you can frighten some ten year olds.  Maybe.

Second, if you were under instruction you should have taken the actions you want to use on me and used them on your instructor.  The instructor's job is to keep you safe, not place you in danger for no good reason.

Third, they were training and it turned into an accident.  That's really sh!t training in the book of Steingar.  If you want to simulate an engine out you reduce throttle.  Isn't perfect, but it is safe.  I myself do occasional increases in power if the engine is going to stay at idle for any length of time.  I hope you do as well.

I suppose it's possible that they just reduced throttle and couldn't get the engine back, but I find it highly unlikely. Glad they landed safely, but I would rather it was at an airport.  We all pay for these accidents.

[kortopates]

26 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

So are you pulling the "mixture to idle" (which, I would think, kills the engine) or did you mean pulling throttle to idle?  It sounds from the rest of your description that you still have power but later mentioned restart procedures, so that's why I ask.

Typo - I meant to say Throttle to idle -- never ever actually killing the engine!! Must have been thinking about this incident. Never have come close to losing an engine yet simulating an engine out, just need to warm them up. Thanks for letting me know, I'll correct that typo above too. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by kortopates

[Missile=Awesome]

35 minutes ago, steingar said:

First, bullies don't frighten me. Never have. You can take your attitude somewhere else, like your local schoolyard.  Maybe you can frighten some ten year olds.  Maybe.

Second, if you were under instruction you should have taken the actions you want to use on me and used them on your instructor.  The instructor's job is to keep you safe, not place you in danger for no good reason.

Third, they were training and it turned into an accident.  That's really sh!t training in the book of Steingar.  If you want to simulate an engine out you reduce throttle.  Isn't perfect, but it is safe.  I myself do occasional increases in power if the engine is going to stay at idle for any length of time.  I hope you do as well.

I suppose it's possible that they just reduced throttle and couldn't get the engine back, but I find it highly unlikely. Glad they landed safely, but I would rather it was at an airport.  We all pay for these accidents.

Congrats.  In years of Mooneyspace you earn my first block.  I choose NOT to read a members comments that come from ignorance and conjecture with ZERO consideration to a fellow Mooney pilot owner.  

[ZuluZulu]

45 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Typo - I meant to say Throttle to idle -- never ever actually killing the engine!! Must have been thinking about this incident. Never have come close to losing an engine yet simulating an engine out, just need to warm them up. Thanks for letting me know, I'll correct that typo above too. 

Thanks for the clarification, and I appreciated the detailed description of your procedures!

[orionflt]

At one point I was flying a number of different aircraft, I was in my Mooney practicing loss of engine on takeoff. I was trying to determine my minimum altitude above the ground that I could make the runway if I lost an engine on takeoff. During one of the attempts I pulled the mixture back instead of the prop, made my circle back to the field looking at alternate landing areas. As I finished my turn and I determined that the field was could not be made and there were no safe landing areas I pushed the prop in and moved over to apply throttle. This is when I realized that I had actually pulled the mixture and not the prop. That realization came when the engine surged back to life. It was a non incident but it had the potential to be something serious if the engine hadn’t fired back up. 
made me realize that even if you give yourself plenty of safety margins when your practicing emergencies, you can still end up in a bad situation. 
 

Brian 

[RLCarter]

7 hours ago, steingar said:

1st - Takes a Darwin level of stupidity to take a simulated emergency and turn it into a real one.

2nd - A Darwin level of stupidity decreases your fitness and pulls you out of the gene pool.  Natural selection in action.

3rd - They were training and it turned into an accident.  That's really sh!t training in the book of Steingar.  If you want to          simulate an engine out you reduce throttle.  Isn't perfect, but it is safe.  I myself do occasional increases in power            if the engine is going to stay at idle for any length of time.  I hope you do as well.

         I suppose it's possible that they just reduced throttle and couldn't get the engine back, but I find it highly unlikely.          Glad they landed safely, but I would rather it was at an airport.  We all pay for these accidents.

Your comments just keep getting better, but I'm confused. Did you want them pulled from the gene pool or are you glad they landed safely? Yes we all pay higher insurance premiums because of what happened just like we do when Pilots don't follow FAR §91.103, you know the one where pilots are suppose to check the length of runways at airports of intended use. There's a post on MS, search "About time I fessed up", its a good read and if I remember correctly no one want him pulled from the gene pool or even called him a special kind of stupid...hmmm

[carusoam]

Another way to accidentally kill the engine...

If you forget to push the mixture in, and leave it set for lean in cruise...

When you pull the throttle back for landing.... things get eeerily silent while rolling down the runway...

You have seconds to catch it before trying to decide what type of start to perform... is that a hot start?

 

Oddly, I did this at Orionflt’s airport... 

A few Gumps checks usually catches the m...

Great discussion gents!

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

Another way to accidentally kill the engine...

If you forget to push the mixture in, and leave it set for lean in cruise...

When you pull the throttle back for landing.... things get eeerily silent while rolling down the runway...

You have seconds to catch it before trying to decide what type of start to perform... is that a hot start?

 

Oddly, I did this at Orionflt’s airport... 

A few Gumps checks usually catches the m...

Great discussion gents!

Best regards,

-a-

Not my experience with the Bendix RSA fuel system on Lycomings. If it ran in cruise it should run fine at field elevation. Can’t speak to the carbureted birds but would be interested in a data point.  

[Shadrach]

On 11/18/2020 at 2:48 PM, steingar said:

First, bullies don't frighten me. Never have. You can take your attitude somewhere else, like your local schoolyard.  Maybe you can frighten some ten year olds.  Maybe.

Second, if you were under instruction you should have taken the actions you want to use on me and used them on your instructor.  The instructor's job is to keep you safe, not place you in danger for no good reason.

Third, they were training and it turned into an accident.  That's really sh!t training in the book of Steingar.  If you want to simulate an engine out you reduce throttle.  Isn't perfect, but it is safe.  I myself do occasional increases in power if the engine is going to stay at idle for any length of time.  I hope you do as well.

I suppose it's possible that they just reduced throttle and couldn't get the engine back, but I find it highly unlikely. Glad they landed safely, but I would rather it was at an airport.  We all pay for these accidents.

You have no idea what type of insurance claim was made here, nor do you know the cause of the failure. The book of Steingar should have a chapter recalling how pilots on this board responded graciously to someone that pranged a prop hard enough to break the crankshaft by using poor short field technique to land at an airport with a runway >3000’.  That pilot made the “short field” approach not knowing that the runway was 35% longer than he thought because he did not verify destination runway length before departing. Poor airmanship can be excused but the lack of self awareness is a tougher pill to swallow.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Shadrach

[Hank]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

Another way to accidentally kill the engine...

If you forget to push the mixture in, and leave it set for lean in cruise...

When you pull the throttle back for landing.... things get eeerily silent while rolling down the runway...

You have seconds to catch it before trying to decide what type of start to perform... is that a hot start?

This eery silence on rollout happened to me on myirst Cessna flight in several years, when I leaned the mixture 2/3 towards ICO like I do my Mooney.  Managed to coast off the runway for a hot start . . . .

[steingar]

10 hours ago, orionflt said:

At one point I was flying a number of different aircraft, I was in my Mooney practicing loss of engine on takeoff. I was trying to determine my minimum altitude above the ground that I could make the runway if I lost an engine on takeoff. During one of the attempts I pulled the mixture back instead of the prop, made my circle back to the field looking at alternate landing areas. As I finished my turn and I determined that the field was could not be made and there were no safe landing areas I pushed the prop in and moved over to apply throttle. This is when I realized that I had actually pulled the mixture and not the prop. That realization came when the engine surged back to life. It was a non incident but it had the potential to be something serious if the engine hadn’t fired back up. 
made me realize that even if you give yourself plenty of safety margins when your practicing emergencies, you can still end up in a bad situation. 
 

Brian 

I never grab the mixture instead of the prop.  Never ever.

 

 

I pull the mixture instead of the flap release.  I should paint that mixture knob some day.

 

And I have to back off some of my previous comments.  I came under the impression that the flight was instructional.  To me having two pilots, one a CFI, miss that the engine has been shut off irrevocably at low altitude is Darwin level stupidity.  Having a pilot and a passenger is a different deal.  Anyone can make a mistake, especially if there's a passenger to drive a nice distraction.