IFR Upgrade for M20E

[MooneyAcolyte]

I'm  new in this group as I am in the market for an M20E or F and am finding mainly VFR equipped offers. Now my plan is to get one of these and upgrade to what I need for IFR flying in Europe. I wonder if more knowledgable people than myself could help me giving me some advise or examples of their IFR panel layouts. Thanks for any information in advance.

[Hank]

You may need to describe the European IFR requirements. I don't recall ever seeing a Mooney with only VFR instruments installed--even my C is IFR, with fresh certification last week.

[Ibra]

Depends on what you need "just legal for IFR" or "way convenient IFR", I can answer the 1st one, but remember what is legal is not necessary safe 
For the latter you may get a whole spectrum of advice depending on your mission, skill and budget 

Also without going into local European countries requirements that amounts more to myths (e.g. dual altimeter, dual radio, autopilots, dual VORs...) rather than actual requirements, I am assuming you will be operating under EASA Part-NCO (e.g. Part91 US style), so just have a good read of the Part-NCO document and make your mind, one has to read it at least once in his whole life  

M20E is EASA aircraft and can falls under Part-NCO ops, so does the type certificate/data sheet/AFM allow IFR? yes and I think Hank got you that an answer 
If in doubt check Section 4 “Operating limitations” of your aircraft under weather/flight rules operations and also look MEL/CDL lists for IFR

Now on flying equipments under NCO.125, for IFR the min is watch/clock, ASI + PT heat, COMPASS, 1 ALT, VSI, TXB, AI, DG and OAT (Pitot & Static needs test every 2 years), also Mach number indicator is you are bloody fast and your VNE is 0.25M 

On comm & surveillance equipments under NCO.190/200, 8.33khz radio (just 1 two-way com unless the aircraft is "complex 6T" or certified for IFR with 2 or airspace needs 2) and Mode S transponder (needs to be ON & alt reporting tested every 24 months)

For Navigation it gets sketchy, but under PBN you only need nav equipment to achieve route accuracy and second independent backup
- People go for VOR+VOR, VOR+ADF, VOR+GPS, GPS+GPS and maybe extra DME+ADF
- Any BRNAV5 certified IFR GPS should do 10nm wide airways for en-route
- To fly a given plate IAP in IMC, you need it's equipment* 
Also load of caveats on installation being approved in the "aircraft book"

*Some operators use GPS instead of ADF & DME even for traditional holds or substitute GPS distance for LOC/VOR/NDB approaches, I am not sure if that is strictly legal or allowed (maybe country dependent?) but load of aircrafts fly IFR approaches without ADF & DME installations, including CAT, safety-wise there are load of glitches to watch for (e.g. slant distance vs flat distance, THR vs MAPT in straight-in/circle/offset in ILS and GPS, ARP vs THR, ARP vs MAPT, how NDB+DME/LOC+DME/VOR+DME are collocated, how DME is calibrated...), only people who do flight calibration for a living will have a good grasp where "0DME" or "0ADF" sits as GPS Waypoint, those 0.5nm error matters a lot in marginal visibility...

Edited August 10, 2020 by Ibra

[tmo]

Pro tip - buy one that already has the stuff you want.

[ArtVandelay]

Pro tip - buy one that already has the stuff you want.

Sometimes that’s not possible depending on your wants.

[gsxrpilot]

40 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Sometimes that’s not possible depending on your wants.lack of patience.

Fixed it for you 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, tmo said:

Pro tip - buy one that already has the stuff you want.

NoPro tip - I don't know what I want but I am very motivated buyer

[carusoam]

welcome aboard Wannabe...

Which countries will you be flying through...

We have a few MSers in each country.

 

If you buy a plane with the original instruments... there are plenty of new instruments that have hit the market recently...

+1 on getting a plane that has been upgraded already...

+1 on buying somebody else’s forever-plane...

+1 on tossing out the ADF, DME, and marker beacons.... and going with a WAAS based GPS...

+1 on digital displays with extra flight data details...

USPP thoughts only, not a Euro CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

17 hours ago, Ibra said:

NoPro tip - I don't know what I want but I am very motivated buyer

Dude, you just described every meeting of our local aero club, ever. Just add how you should have bought such-and-such plane 5 years ago when it was "so inexpensive", the fact that there was no money and nobody would finance it notwithstanding. End of thread drift.

[tmo]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

+1 on tossing out the ADF, DME, and marker beacons.... and going with a WAAS based GPS...

I would not ditch a DME, at least if one wants to fly IFR in Europe - we don't have a GNSS approach to every runway, and we still can't legally substitute yet; I probably would not install one, I don't think anyone ever got busted for substitution and there are loads of planes flying IFR without them; the ADF I would ditch, if I needed the space; the markers I have no opinion on, but they don't take up any space nor weight, so no point in ditching them.

Having a WAAS (well, SBAS is the more technically correct term, since we have EGNOS here, WAAS is in the US) navigator is a definite must.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, tmo said:

I would not ditch a DME, at least if one wants to fly IFR in Europe - we don't have a GNSS approach to every runway, and we still can't legally substitute yet; I probably would not install one, I don't think anyone ever got busted for substitution and there are loads of planes flying IFR without them; the ADF I would ditch, if I needed the space; the markers I have no opinion on, but they don't take up any space nor weight, so no point in ditching them.

While hiring, I only come cross one Cirrus that had ADF+DME installed, the availability for renting that aircraft was almost zero, everybody who owns a Cirrus will go and rent it for their instrument training, tests and revalidation as their own aircraft did not have the kit that would please the instructors or the examiners (for those flying under "CAPS & EASA & FAA rules" there is only one CSIP/FE/DPE in whole Europe and he likes to see ADF+DME )

ADF: should go to the bin, it will enhance safety 
DME: substitution? yes/no? unless flying to familiar airfields on higher minima (or one know TERPS/PANS-OPS by heart )

Edited August 12, 2020 by Ibra

[carusoam]

20 hours ago, tmo said:

I would not ditch a DME, at least if one wants to fly IFR in Europe - we don't have a GNSS approach to every runway, and we still can't legally substitute yet; I probably would not install one, I don't think anyone ever got busted for substitution and there are loads of planes flying IFR without them; the ADF I would ditch, if I needed the space; the markers I have no opinion on, but they don't take up any space nor weight, so no point in ditching them.

Having a WAAS (well, SBAS is the more technically correct term, since we have EGNOS here, WAAS is in the US) navigator is a definite must.

This is the reason I asked... @wannabeMooniac which country he flys in...

In the states... these things have become paper weights... errr.... door stops.....   

They will be displayed next to my Loran on a shelf to be emptied by kids upon my passing....

Haven’t seen him stop back in yet...

PP thoughts regarding old nav boxes...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:49 PM, wannabeMooniac said:

my plan is to get one of these and upgrade to what I need for IFR flying in Europe

He did mention Europe, hence my attempt to highlight the major differences related to the subject. In the specific case of DME: Ditch? No. Replace / repair? Yes. Install? Maybe, but no. ADF: good riddance. WAAS: must have.

[Ibra]

(Joke) they still have AM BS brodcast stations in Belgium (sorry no Loran Anthony, that goes to the shelf or museum ), the ADF can be useful to navigate on the Belgian VFR map on AM BS but they decommissioned most of their IFR NDBs , usually there is a 500ft agl obstacle that goes with a BS AM so don't be very good with those ADF skills 

I think the requirements are now at the European level under Part-NCO, the individual CAAs may have a say on some aircrafts being placarded "VFR day only" due to some obscure requirement (IFR trainers had few: dual foot breaks, some LHS/RHS limitations on POH for use of AP or Avionics installations) but that red tape goes away when one pulls the actual requirements 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Ibra

[MooneyAcolyte]

On 8/10/2020 at 5:14 PM, Hank said:

You may need to describe the European IFR requirements. I don't recall ever seeing a Mooney with only VFR instruments installed--even my C is IFR, with fresh certification last week.

Yes, sorry for the neglect. We need 8.33 MHz radios, S-Band transponder, and likely WAAS (it's called 'EGNOS' here) GPS. Also, @Ibra has explained the various levels of minimum legal to convenient in his posting much better than I could. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by wannabeMooniac

[MooneyAcolyte]

On 8/10/2020 at 6:22 PM, Ibra said:

Depends on what you need "just legal for IFR" or "way convenient IFR", I can answer the 1st one, but remember what is legal is not necessary safe 
For the latter you may get a whole spectrum of advice depending on your mission, skill and budget 

Also without going into local European countries requirements that amounts more to myths (e.g. dual altimeter, dual radio, autopilots, dual VORs...) rather than actual requirements, I am assuming you will be operating under EASA Part-NCO (e.g. Part91 US style), so just have a good read of the Part-NCO document and make your mind, one has to read it at least once in his whole life  

M20E is EASA aircraft and can falls under Part-NCO ops, so does the type certificate/data sheet/AFM allow IFR? yes and I think Hank got you that an answer 
If in doubt check Section 4 “Operating limitations” of your aircraft under weather/flight rules operations and also look MEL/CDL lists for IFR

Now on flying equipments under NCO.125, for IFR the min is watch/clock, ASI + PT heat, COMPASS, 1 ALT, VSI, TXB, AI, DG and OAT (Pitot & Static needs test every 2 years), also Mach number indicator is you are bloody fast and your VNE is 0.25M 

On comm & surveillance equipments under NCO.190/200, 8.33khz radio (just 1 two-way com unless the aircraft is "complex 6T" or certified for IFR with 2 or airspace needs 2) and Mode S transponder (needs to be ON & alt reporting tested every 24 months)

For Navigation it gets sketchy, but under PBN you only need nav equipment to achieve route accuracy and second independent backup
- People go for VOR+VOR, VOR+ADF, VOR+GPS, GPS+GPS and maybe extra DME+ADF
- Any BRNAV5 certified IFR GPS should do 10nm wide airways for en-route
- To fly a given plate IAP in IMC, you need it's equipment* 
Also load of caveats on installation being approved in the "aircraft book"

*Some operators use GPS instead of ADF & DME even for traditional holds or substitute GPS distance for LOC/VOR/NDB approaches, I am not sure if that is strictly legal or allowed (maybe country dependent?) but load of aircrafts fly IFR approaches without ADF & DME installations, including CAT, safety-wise there are load of glitches to watch for (e.g. slant distance vs flat distance, THR vs MAPT in straight-in/circle/offset in ILS and GPS, ARP vs THR, ARP vs MAPT, how NDB+DME/LOC+DME/VOR+DME are collocated, how DME is calibrated...), only people who do flight calibration for a living will have a good grasp where "0DME" or "0ADF" sits as GPS Waypoint, those 0.5nm error matters a lot in marginal visibility...

Thank you, @Ibra, for the information. It is tremendously helpful! I'm very happy to have joined this group to start my learning curve before I go ahead with the purchase.

[MooneyAcolyte]

On 8/13/2020 at 7:18 AM, carusoam said:

This is the reason I asked... @wannabeMooniac which country he flys in...

In the states... these things have become paper weights... errr.... door stops.....   

They will be displayed next to my Loran on a shelf to be emptied by kids upon my passing....

Haven’t seen him stop back in yet...

PP thoughts regarding old nav boxes...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks, both. I have indeed about 200h IFR time in Europe and have encountered many IAPs, which do not allow (at least legally) substitution of DME by GPS. So, thanks again for the discussion, which probably tells me that I'll need: VOR/ILS/DME + GPS (SBAS) in terms of navigation equipment to travel in Europe. 

[carusoam]

One of the coolest MSers ever...

bought an M20E in the states... while he was here for several months...

He worked on it tirelessly to get it up to date...

Practiced with a few very long cross-countries...

Then departed for France, taking his new 2him Mooney home... Maine, Greenland, Iceland, Over Ireland and England, to France...

Fuzzy decade old memories...  if interested...   find @adrian his memory is better than mine... 

Best regards,

-a-