Opinion on avionics on F I am looking at

[FlyinGoon]

Hey guys.  I was last on here a year or so ago looking to get into a Mooney. For a few reasons I delayed that decision, but now am hot and heavy looking.  Curious if those with experience could give me some feedback on the avionics in this 75 F I am looking at. The plane so far appears to be well kept and in excellent condition with about 500hr since OH.  These avionics pre-date my flying a bit so I'm not sure how capable some of them are and what value to assign to them. In other words, what would I end up deciding was unsuitable.

It has.

Apollo GX60 nav and MX20 moving map (these two are my biggest concern).

KX-155 and KN-64 DME (I have limited use on these, but they seemed capable and simple to use)

GTX-327 (I've also used this extensively. I have no problems with this unit)

So obviously the Apollo setup is out of production and non-WAAS, but after viewing some YouTube videos seems pretty capable.  

What are your thoughts on this setup?

About my flying plans. This would be a leisure plane, local and longer trips.  I would plan on getting my IR in whatever plane I purchase.

 

EDITED TO ADD:  The plane also has a STEC (not sure of model) single axis AP, but it follows heading bug only.

Edited June 9, 2020 by FlyinGoon

[rbridges]

I'm not familiar with the Apollo, but generally speaking, adding GPSS to drive an autopilot is one of the least expensive upgrades.  The MX20 is neat, but no longer supported IIRC.  Lots of KX155 still out there but getting displays is next to impossible.  If it looks bad, you may not have much choice.  I heard there's an LCD option but it's not cheap.  I have a KN64, but it's getting scrapped as soon as I redo my panel itself.

As a rule, it's always cheaper to buy a plane that's spec'd the way you want.  The plane costs more, but you're paying only a percentage of the avionics upgrades.  As far as the OH, when was it done?  Has the plane flown regularly?

Edited June 9, 2020 by rbridges

[FlyinGoon]

Yeah, I keep doing this yo-yo justification thing as I search. I start at the "bottom" ($45k planes) and tell myself I don't need anything fancy. LET'S JUST GO FLY. Then I'll think "Well, it would be nice to have a WAAS GPS", then I think "You know, having a 2-axis autopilot makes sense just because if you ever want it, you know you won't pay to have a new one installed", and eventually I settle on. "I must have a "perfect" plane, full glass, AP, new paint and interior". I go look at the prices of said planes, and say to myself "You probably don't need full glass, maybe just a modern GPS and AP", then I say "Well, maybe a modern GPS, but only a wing leveler would work", and then I slowly end up back at the bottom again, just to start the process over....

Anyway, I don't have a date on the OH, but will get that today. As far as flying time, he lost his medical recently and had a surgery a few months back for said condition.  Sounds like he hasn't flown it since fall. It was annualed in October.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, FlyinGoon said:

Yeah, I keep doing this yo-yo justification thing as I search. I start at the "bottom" ($45k planes) and tell myself I don't need anything fancy. LET'S JUST GO FLY. Then I'll think "Well, it would be nice to have a WAAS GPS", then I think "You know, having a 2-axis autopilot makes sense just because if you ever want it, you know you won't pay to have a new one installed", and eventually I settle on. "I must have a "perfect" plane, full glass, AP, new paint and interior". I go look at the prices of said planes, and say to myself "You probably don't need full glass, maybe just a modern GPS and AP", then I say "Well, maybe a modern GPS, but only a wing leveler would work", and then I slowly end up back at the bottom again, just to start the process over....

Anyway, I don't have a date on the OH, but will get that today. As far as flying time, he lost his medical recently and had a surgery a few months back for said condition.  Sounds like he hasn't flown it since fall. It was annualed in October.

There is a lot of room between no autopilot, no WAAS and full Garmin glass. 

Of all the little things you could upgrade on an airplane, the autopilot and WAAS GPS are by far the most expensive. It's not unusual to spend $40K just to do those two items. So if you can find a plane with both of them already installed. Even just an STEC 30 and a GNS 430W, you'll be way ahead financially. Mooneys are excellent traveling airplanes. New owners who have never really been out of the pattern, soon find themselves flying across the country. As one of our distinguished members on this forum says, "It's not a cross-country unless you stop for fuel and are still outbound." And for this type of flying, an autopilot and moving map GPS is a huge benefit and just makes the whole experience more enjoyable. 

And double all that if you're planning on getting your Instrument Rating in this airplane. You can certainly get your IR with an ADF and a single VOR head. But why? Instead of a $45K airplane, look for a $55K airplane and you'll have the autopilot and GPS.

[MikeOH]

IF you are really planning on travel of more than an hour or two, you will really appreciate an AP.  I lucked out, an AP wasn't on my list of required items, but the F I bought had an STEC-30 with altitude hold.  Boy am I ever happy I have it:). It failed on me before a 4 hour trip...hand flying a total 0f 8 hours SUCKED big time.

As gsxrpilot astutely points out, you want to BUY the plane with the avionics you want already installed.  Buying a low cost plane and upgrading later will result in a high cost plane.  Spend $15K more upfront and save >$30K.

New avionics have to be the worst value ever; depreciation is 50%. Be the guy that lets somebody else cover that cost

[Niko182]

Ill go ahead and agree with half of what paul said. AP's are really expensive right now, but a waas gps can be aquired for under 4500 bucks now. The GPS175 is about as cheap as it gets.

[tmo]

Agreed, but the install isn't exactly free, so one is probably looking for quite a significant total figure anyway.

[Niko182]

Just now, tmo said:

Agreed, but the install isn't exactly free, so one is probably looking for quite a significant total figure anyway.

The GPS175 can be owner installed with a signoff. It doesnt need to be installed by a garmin installed dealer. Same with the G5's.

[ArtVandelay]

New avionics have to be the worst value ever; depreciation is 50%. Be the guy that lets somebody else cover that cost

The problems with this is:
1. You going to have to live with POs preferences of equipment and layout, some I’ve seen are awful.
2. So much new cool avionics has been released in the past few years, unlikely to find a plane with latest generation, most likely will have to lived with previous generation of equipment.

I think it depends on whether this will be your forever plane or not.


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The problems with this is:
1. You going to have to live with POs preferences of equipment and layout, some I’ve seen are awful.
2. So much new cool avionics has been released in the past few years, unlikely to find a plane with latest generation, most likely will have to lived with previous generation of equipment.

I think it depends on whether this will be your forever plane or not.

All good points. But... as an example, finding a plane with a 430W or 530W already installed, makes an upgrade to a modern unit like an IFD440/540 much easier and cheaper. Finding a plane with an STEC 30/altitude hold now, allows you to wait until a newer modern autopilot is FINALLY certified for the vintage Mooney. Even having good instruments in an ugly shotgun or surface mounted layout, means it's cheaper to rearrange them than to buy all new AND cut the new panel. 

My 252 is meant to be my forever plane. But I made sure to start with one that had the best available autopilot, KFC150, flight director, and altitude pre-select. It also had a 530W and a GMA340 which would mean easier and much cheaper upgrades to an IFD540 and PMA450.

I also think it's pretty rare for someone's very first Mooney to turn out to be their forever plane. It does happen and several on this forum are perfect examples. But more of us buy the first airplane to test the waters and then once being bitten and fully infected by the Mooney bug, decide it's time to get serious about the one we really want as our forever Mooney.

[FlyinGoon]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

All good points. But... as an example, finding a plane with a 430W or 530W already installed, makes an upgrade to a modern unit like an IFD440/540 much easier and cheaper. Finding a plane with an STEC 30/altitude hold now, allows you to wait until a newer modern autopilot is FINALLY certified for the vintage Mooney. Even having good instruments in an ugly shotgun or surface mounted layout, means it's cheaper to rearrange them than to buy all new AND cut the new panel. 

My 252 is meant to be my forever plane. But I made sure to start with one that had the best available autopilot, KFC150, flight director, and altitude pre-select. It also had a 530W and a GMA340 which would mean easier and much cheaper upgrades to an IFD540 and PMA450.

I also think it's pretty rare for someone's very first Mooney to turn out to be their forever plane. It does happen and several on this forum are perfect examples. But more of us buy the first airplane to test the waters and then once being bitten and fully infected by the Mooney bug, decide it's time to get serious about the one we really want as our forever Mooney.

I doubt this will be my forever plane (just knowing my habits with these types of purchases), but if I get invested enough it could be. It sounds like sticking to my guns with atleast a 2-axis autopilot makes sense, and perhaps setting the floor at 430W since they are so prevalent and would get me many years of use as well as my planned IR training.

I see lots of options out there that fit this criteria when looking at C and E models, not many F. I was originally fixed on the E model anyway, and given I'm only 5'9, perhaps the backseat will be do-able for a longer-legged passenger.

[gsxrpilot]

43 minutes ago, FlyinGoon said:

I was originally fixed on the E model anyway, and given I'm only 5'9, perhaps the backseat will be do-able for a longer-legged passenger.

Yeah, there will be plenty of room in the back seat in your Mooney. Even a short body E.

And remember, the person in the back seat is probably flying for free... you're not buying an airplane for them... and you're never gonna sit back there, you're the pilot and have a reserved seat up front 

[TonyK]

As for the Apollo gear.  I have a GX in my C172.  The Apollo gear is EOL'd so plan on buying yellow tagged replacements if something ever goes wrong with them.  They are prone to display delamination in the corners of the screen and replacements are not available.  That said it does work fine for being decades old technology. 

[TheLachlan]

@FlyinGoon sent you a pm.

[kris_adams]

I flew with a 430W/155 and a Century IIB/Stec 30 altitude hold for 10+ years.  Amazingly capable boxes given (IIRC) two of them are 40+ years old and the other is 20+ years.  I did an avionics upgrade and choose to keep my 43OW.  I agree with @gsxrpilot that there are a lot of options out there that don't break the bank.  Keep searching and you'll find what you want!

Edited June 11, 2020 by Kris_Adams