Landing with Speed Brakes?

[ScubaMan]

I too am trying to get the landings figured out in my Ovation 3. I have just about 30 hours in the Mooney and probably 80 landings by now.  I have learned that proper approach speed and flare height seem to be the ticket to a smooth landing. I have only used full flaps and think I'm ready to try some new techniques. Has anyone tried landing with the Speed Brakes? I just read an article in a year old Plane and Pilot where the author of the article claims landing speed is less critcal when using speed brakes. If we use them to land do we still use full flaps? What happens on the go around? Any suggestions would be appreciated....

 

Thanks
Mike Johnson 

[HopePilot]

I did it once without realizing it.  Not a big deal.

[Omega703]

Before I purchased my rocket, I was checked out in a rocket a local FBO had for rent. They were teaching folks to land with the speed brakes out. In the orginization I work for (USAF), it's procedure in all fighters. However, I no longer use the speed brakes for landing in my mooney simply because if i have to execute a go around it's one less thing i have to remember, and the switch is not in an easy to reach place. Also, unless you're landing on short fields, I don't see a need for them. While i don't have the numbers for induced drag of full flaps vs speed brakes, you'll get much of the same effect using full flaps if needed.

my two cents

[docket]

I don't land with the speed brakes out because, in my opinion, that is a crutch just to conceal a bad effort at speed control.  I only use the speed brakes to get slowed and to descend with more power.

[Piloto]

As the speed is reduced and the angle of attack increased the speed brakes have a lesser effect on the aerodynamics when coming in for landing. Greatest effect is most noticeable on a high speed descend were it increases the descent rate. Most significant effect on landing are the flaps. If you want to avoid the floating effect or improve controllability during crosswinds landings just raise the flaps completely just before touchdown (about 5ft above ground). It works very well and assures mains first contact with ground. I do not use flaps on take off. The rotation speed is a little bit higher but more positive with no trimming required. It also eliminates the minute nose wheel bouncing effect on take off on wavy runways.

José

  

[johnggreen]

Docket,

Please don't take this personally, but I think you have mis-spoken.  Setting an aircraft up for a stabilized approach and using the equipment provided to create that stability is not a crutch.  I don't think you meant it the way it came out, but let me elaborate.

It would be an over simplification to ask how you would like to land a 747 clean, without using the "crutches" of spoilers and flaps, but it would be an accurate over simplification.

A Mooney is clean, very clean, with I understand less than four square feet of frontal surface for drag.  There are many considerations depending on the circumstances affecting a particular landing as to how you should set the airplane up, but in short, the pilot should do whatever he can to have a stabilized approach.  That becomes even more critical during an instrument approach when you consider the workload you would face in a go-around or missed approach.

That being said, on my Bravo, I can not tell whether the speed brakes are deployed at all below about 90 knots.  If they did provide additional drag at approach speeds, I would probably use them.

I remember a friend of mine was beefing up for his semi-annual check ride in the Airbus 320 one time and I asked what caused most busted check rides.  His reply; failure to establish a stabilized approach.  I believe he said that Fed Ex wanted the approach "stabilized" at least 3 miles out, but it may have been 5.

Anyway, I would encourage any pilot to use all the tools at his disposal to create a low work load and a stabilized aircraft in all flight regimines but especially on approach.  As an instructor, I insist on it.

 

[jetdriven]

I have only used speed brakes on a Mooney once, in a J, and I didnt really notice much drag below 90 KTS.  Thart said, they do blank out a percentage of the wing area and are going to raise the stall speed a couple knots.  So if you come in a couple knots faster to compensate for that, well , you negated the benefit on landing with them deployed. If you are that comfortable losing a couple knots of stall margin, then come in without spoilers a couple knots slower.

I do agree with Jose, raise the flaps in the flare.  Just get it right and know what you are doing.  This is not SOP, but however, a technique to deal with extremely short landings. We used to do this in the Beech 1900D and we could stop a 12,000 lb airplane in 800 feet.  As in, turn off the runway before the aiming point markings.

John, a 747 does not land with the spoilers out. In fact, you are not alowed to have the spoilers out with any flap extension at all.    A short field landing in that airplane is flaps 30, Vref +5/-0, landing in the touchdown zone with little float, and max autobrakes and reverse until stop.  The airplane raises half of the slats on touchdown to add weight to the wheels.  Fedex does not have Airbus A320s and the general rule on stabilized approaches is based on altitude, which is 500' VFR and 1000' IFR.  These are 1.6 and 3.3 miles from the aiming point markings respectively. Some airlines are 1000' VFR and FAF inbound IFR.   You can also be stabilized on a circling approach from which you depart the circle at 400 AGL and roll out on final at 1/2 mile.  Your friend is right in the fact that unstabilized approaches preceed most landing accidents.  It is a great predictor.

Quote: johnggreen

Docket,

Please don't take this personally, but I think you have mis-spoken.  Setting an aircraft up for a stabilized approach and using the equipment provided to create that stability is not a crutch.  I don't think you meant it the way it came out, but let me elaborate.

It would be an over simplification to ask how you would like to land a 747 clean, without using the "crutches" of spoilers and flaps, but it would be an accurate over simplification.

A Mooney is clean, very clean, with I understand less than four square feet of frontal surface for drag.  There are many considerations depending on the circumstances affecting a particular landing as to how you should set the airplane up, but in short, the pilot should do whatever he can to have a stabilized approach.  That becomes even more critical during an instrument approach when you consider the workload you would face in a go-around or missed approach.

That being said, on my Bravo, I can not tell whether the speed brakes are deployed at all below about 90 knots.  If they did provide additional drag at approach speeds, I would probably use them.

I remember a friend of mine was beefing up for his semi-annual check ride in the Airbus 320 one time and I asked what caused most busted check rides.  His reply; failure to establish a stabilized approach.  I believe he said that Fed Ex wanted the approach "stabilized" at least 3 miles out, but it may have been 5.

Anyway, I would encourage any pilot to use all the tools at his disposal to create a low work load and a stabilized aircraft in all flight regimines but especially on approach.  As an instructor, I insist on it.

 

[jetdriven]

Mike:

In addition to the long post I made above,  American stuffed a 757 into the side of a mountain in Columbia back in 1995 because they did a GPWS escape maneuver and forgot to stow the spoilers.  The hit near the top of a mountain.

Not that you are going to Columbia soon, but forgetting to stow the spoilers on a  real life go around or missed approach is going to make a huge dent in your climb rate.

Quote: ScubaMan

I too am trying to get the landings figured out in my Ovation 3. I have just about 30 hours in the Mooney and probably 80 landings by now.  I have learned that proper approach speed and flare height seem to be the ticket to a smooth landing. I have only used full flaps and think I'm ready to try some new techniques. Has anyone tried landing with the Speed Brakes? I just read an article in a year old Plane and Pilot where the author of the article claims landing speed is less critcal when using speed brakes. If we use them to land do we still use full flaps? What happens on the go around? Any suggestions would be appreciated....

 

Thanks

Mike Johnson 

[AustinChurch]

I have speed brakes as well and use them for decent only and stow them when I put the gear down at 130 kias.  I set my MP at 16" and fly 100 kias down wind by adding a 3 second count on flaps, 90 on base by adding 3 more seconds count on flaps, 80 on final by adding the rest of the flaps and 75 across the numbers by reducing MP a little.  On each of the legs of the pattern, I'm triming for said speeds.  I also use trim to aid in the pull back for the round out/flare.  Once flared, I slowly reduce the power to idle and she settles on the runway very softly.  With this technique, I makes it very smooth, stable and easy to control the speeds in all segments.  If I adhere to these techniques, it's easy to squeek it on without speed brakes.  My Missile speeds/weights are similar to the Ovation so they should work for you. 

[gsengle]

Quote: AustinChurch

I have speed brakes as well and use them for decent only and stow them when I put the gear down at 130 kias.  I set my MP at 16" and fly 100 kias down wind by adding a 3 second count on flaps, 90 on base by adding 3 more seconds count on flaps, 80 on final by adding the rest of the flaps and 75 across the numbers by reducing MP a little.  On each of the legs of the pattern, I'm triming for said speeds.  I also use trim to aid in the pull back for the round out/flare.  Once flared, I slowly reduce the power to idle and she settles on the runway very softly.  With this technique, I makes it very smooth, stable and easy to control the speeds in all segments.  If I adhere to these techniques, it's easy to squeek it on without speed brakes.  My Missile speeds/weights are similar to the Ovation so they should work for you. 

[RJBrown]

 No reason not to use them. Once out they can stay out till safely on the ground doing the after landing checklist. They are small to allow certification for two reasons. #1 asymmetrical deployment cannot cause control issues. #2 MUST be able to climb properly on a missed approach if left out.

I used them a lot on my Rocket. Only way to get down in some conditions. They help cover for poor decent planning by you or MOSTLY by center. They really don't make a lot of difference at pattern speeds. The Rocket bumps up against VNE when descending 45% and 500 FPM. To come down any faster you must slow way down or deploy speed brakes.

There are 2 places where I used them a lot VFR eastbound into Denver you must lose altitude quickly to stay under the class B after clearing the mountains and IFR inbound over LARKS intersection. Center plans your decent assuming DIA then slam dunks you into APA. 

To pull them in in the pattern is not needed. They do help smooth the landings.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I just use mine cause they look cool.   There's not much advantage below about 120 knots or so.

They're not quite as cool as Lean of Peak climbs though.

[RJBrown]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I just use mine cause they look cool.   There's not much advantage below about 120 knots or so.

 

Just remember to put them down before you turn off the master. That clang is embarrassing and kills the cool.

[M016576]

wouldn't recommend using your speed brakes during landing in a light GA aircraft.  Too much potential to forget ot put them back in in the event of a go around....

Some older jets I flew landed with speed brakes deployed, but that was to keep the low bypass turbo jets from spooling down too low during landing (they had painfully long spool up times that could lead to some serious settles in close...).  No real advantage to popping the boards in a NA piston motor, as you've got pretty much instantaneous power available.

[gsengle]

Quote: M016576

wouldn't recommend using your speed brakes during landing in a light GA aircraft.  Too much potential to forget ot put them back in in the event of a go around....

Some older jets I flew landed with speed brakes deployed, but that was to keep the low bypass turbo jets from spooling down too low during landing (they had painfully long spool up times that could lead to some serious settles in close...).  No real advantage to popping the boards in a NA piston motor, as you've got pretty much instantaneous power available.

[ScubaMan]

Thanks for all the good advice......

Mike

[orangemtl]

As a lowtimer, I've been working quite a bit on avoiding the dreaded porpoise maneuver.  Not a big deal anymore, but I've still had the intermittent hop; it's annoying, and looks bad. Speed on final is, of course crucial.

I've started deploying the speed brakes just before touching down, in the flare.  I recognize that it has a minor effect at most at low speeds: but the 'hops' are gone. So long as I'm not doing so 40 feet off the ground and dropping like a rock, is this a bad idea? I welcome honest input: if it's an idiotic habit, fire away and let me know. Thanks.

[docket]

Probably the best answer is fiy whatever way feels most comfortable.  I never land with the speed brakes out but maybe that is just me -- they do nothing at that speed except to make a go around harder.  

[Piloto]

Quote: orangemtl

As a lowtimer, I've been working quite a bit on avoiding the dreaded porpoise maneuver.  Not a big deal anymore, but I've still had the intermittent hop; it's annoying, and looks bad. Speed on final is, of course crucial.

I've started deploying the speed brakes just before touching down, in the flare.  I recognize that it has a minor effect at most at low speeds: but the 'hops' are gone. So long as I'm not doing so 40 feet off the ground and dropping like a rock, is this a bad idea? I welcome honest input: if it's an idiotic habit, fire away and let me know. Thanks.

[Seth]

In 2009 during a trip to the North, I was on final at chicago executive airport (talk about busy airspace!), and they asked me to expedite as I had a King Air on a three mile final behind me.  I kept my speed up and then put out the speed brakes to slow down just before landing.  After the turn off the taxi way, I realized they were still depoloyed (even though I had already raised my flaps).  That's the only time I've landed with the speed brakes deployed. 

I do not plan, nor have I, made a normal habit of it.

-Seth

[Bennett]

I don't advocate that anyone should follow my methodology, but I use my speed brakes extensively on my 1983 M20J. In cruise whenever I want to drop altitude quickly without excessive speed buildup, and in the pattern, and on final, with some landings made with the speed brakes out.  I have a yoke switch that I rest a finger on lightly so I can retract them without effort or time lag.  They are obviously much more effective at cruise speed, but still quite noticeable at pattern and final approach speeds. At my home airport, San Carlos, CA almost all the various pathways of normal approach from the west, south and north keep you above the pattern altitude of 800 feet until you are virtually at the airport itself. Typically you will hear something like "Maintain 1200 feet or above until crossing the runway..." Speed brakes allow you to stay above the very noise sensitive homes, plus hotels and a hospital, that surround the airport to the west and north east (but still staying below the Class B San Francisco airspace), and drop down to pattern altitude within a short distance and short time.  I use the speedbrakes to then slow down to gear, if not out earlier, and flap speeds, and generally still have them out on final to continue to lose speed, and to maintain the attitude and flight path I desire. I may pull them in and out several times on final.  In stronger crosswinds I use half (or no flaps) and speedbrakes. Go-arounds are not a problem in that I retract them at first notice. This past week a new tower controller screwed up his spacings twice with Cessna 150s (students) in front of me, and a Malibu in trail, and twice I was instructed to do a go-around.  No big deal. Speedbrakes back in, flaps up, full power (with lots of trim adjustments). The last time I was at less than 100 feet, and the pilot of the 150 taxied along the entire length of the runway after landing in the first one third of our 2,500 foot runway, surprising the controller, and me.  The point being that it is not at all difficult to do a go-around when you use speed brakes on final.  I always half expect, and mentally plan for a go-around, so I am prepared for the usual  "unusual" situation. This is my second Mooney with speed brakes, and personally, I wouldn't want to own a Mooney without them.

[gsengle]

Quote: Bennett

I don't advocate that anyone should follow my methodology, but I use my speed brakes extensively on my 1983 M20J. In cruise whenever I want to drop altitude quickly without excessive speed buildup, and in the pattern, and on final, with some landings made with the speed brakes out.  I have a yoke switch that I rest a finger on lightly so I can retract them without effort or time lag.  They are obviously much more effective at cruise speed, but still quite noticeable at pattern and final approach speeds. At my home airport, San Carlos, CA almost all the various pathways of normal approach from the west, south and north keep you above the pattern altitude of 800 feet until you are virtually at the airport itself. Typically you will hear something like "Maintain 1200 feet or above until crossing the runway..." Speed brakes allow you to stay above the very noise sensitive homes, plus hotels and a hospital, that surround the airport to the west and north east (but still staying below the Class B San Francisco airspace), and drop down to pattern altitude within a short distance and short time.  I use the speedbrakes to then slow down to gear, if not out earlier, and flap speeds, and generally still have them out on final to continue to lose speed, and to maintain the attitude and flight path I desire. I may pull them in and out several times on final.  In stronger crosswinds I use half (or no flaps) and speedbrakes. Go-arounds are not a problem in that I retract them at first notice. This past week a new tower controller screwed up his spacings twice with Cessna 150s (students) in front of me, and a Malibu in trail, and twice I was instructed to do a go-around.  No big deal. Speedbrakes back in, flaps up, full power (with lots of trim adjustments). The last time I was at less than 100 feet, and the pilot of the 150 taxied along the entire length of the runway after landing in the first one third of our 2,500 foot runway, surprising the controller, and me.  The point being that it is not at all difficult to do a go-around when you use speed brakes on final.  I always half expect, and mentally plan for a go-around, so I am prepared for the usual  "unusual" situation. This is my second Mooney with speed brakes, and personally, I wouldn't want to own a Mooney without them.

[Seth]

The speed brakes in the 1967 M20F were manual right next to the trim wheel between the seats on the floor.  The new Missile does not have speed brakes.  So it was similar to the manual Johnson bar for operation - just check it with a head twist to ensure they are stowed, as since you manuall set them, you may not retract them all the way.  Even when the manual speed brakes are extended partially they disrupt airflow and increase drag.

-Seth

[carusoam]

Thoughts on speed brake deployment...

The part I find missing in brake deployment is there is no tactile way to feel whether they are deployed or stowed.  With the gear switch, it is in an up or down position (J-Bar is up or down), flap switch is down or way down (Hydraulic: two pumps or four),

Brakes are push the button or push the button (and observe, did they both activate?).  Since it is part of my check list to know whether they are deployed or not, I end up looking out the window at them a few times. 

A two position rocker switch with a feel of up or down would be nice....?

Higher than usual sink rate on final is a less than subtle hint that they are not stowed like you think....

Best regards,

-a-

[gsengle]

Quote: carusoam

Thoughts on speed brake deployment...

The part I find missing in brake deployment is there is no tactile way to feel whether they are deployed or stowed.  With the gear switch, it is in an up or down position (J-Bar is up or down), flap switch is down or way down (Hydraulic: two pumps or four),

Brakes are push the button or push the button (and observe, did they both activate?).  Since it is part of my check list to know whether they are deployed or not, I end up looking out the window at them a few times. 

A two position rocker switch with a feel of up or down would be nice....?

Higher than usual sink rate on final is a less than subtle hint that they are not stowed like you think....

Best regards,

-a-