M20R Standby Attitude

[GeeBee]

I started my G1000 M20R for a 300 mile trip this morning when I found my standby attitude indicator inop. Flag in view. Reset breaker, no help. Got behind, pulled the cannon plug,  reset. No help. Took it over to my favorite avionics shop. They checked the power to the plug as good. So need a new standby indicator. A call to Mid-Continent, the manufacturer, 2,700 OH/EX. I asked what a GI-275 would run installed. 3600. So I am going with the GI-275.

[carusoam]

That will win a prize for most powerful back-up device...

If you need MS approval for your decision.... Let me start...

You have been approved!

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I started my G1000 M20R for a 300 mile trip this morning when I found my standby attitude indicator inop. Flag in view. Reset breaker, no help. Got behind, pulled the cannon plug,  reset. No help. Took it over to my favorite avionics shop. They checked the power to the plug as good. So need a new standby indicator. A call to Mid-Continent, the manufacturer, 2,700 OH/EX. I asked what a GI-275 would run installed. 3600. So I am going with the GI-275.

Or you could just buy this and plug it in, zero labor

 

[Mark89114]

How are you getting a GI-275 installed for $3600?  By itself the instrument is $3500.

 

[tmo]

Dealer pricing?

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, Mark89114 said:

How are you getting a GI-275 installed for $3600?  By itself the instrument is $3500.

 

One time good deal just for me!

 

[Mark89114]

@GEE-BEE well.... you really shouldnt rub it in like that...some of us are sensitive CB's and feel left out of great deals like that 

[GeeBee]

I understand. It took me 5 seconds to jump on the deal.

[bradp]

As long as its not a Gee Eye 275. 

[Jeff_S]

@GeeBee I'd like to see a pic when you get it done.  I've been thinking of replacing my backup AI with the GI-275 in my continued effort to completely rid myself of spinning gyros.  Unfortunately, with S-TEC's decision to forego the Mooney on the 3100, I am still stuck with a gyro running my S-TEC 55x.  But all in good time...

[GeeBee]

Just got it back. I will post pictures next week. One thing that is a little downer is you cannot get rid of the airspeed indicator or the altimeter even though the unit is an "all in one". It is because of the STC I am told, although I need to study that further.

 

[GeeBee]

Okay. You asked for a picture, here it is!

 

[Jeff_S]

Very nice...looks good, and very bright!  So by saying you can't get rid of the A/S and Altimeter, do I understand that those are plumbed in as well and showing accurate data? Or do you just see the indicator but with no data?

[GeeBee]

No, I now have 3 A/S and 3 altimeters LOL! The reason being is the GI-275 STC as a standby A/I does not allow replacement of the A/S and Altimeter. I actually don't think you can replace A/S and ALT even if it were primary based on what I read.

 

[carusoam]

All attached to the same Pitot - static system?
 

I don’t think many people add a second system...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

No, this is correct. If you have one altimeter and airspeed you know how high you are an how fast you are going. But, if you have two, you're never quite sure. With three, you can vote and the majority wins!

[kortopates]

No, I now have 3 A/S and 3 altimeters LOL! The reason being is the GI-275 STC as a standby A/I does not allow replacement of the A/S and Altimeter. I actually don't think you can replace A/S and ALT even if it were primary based on what I read.
 

I believe that's because the GI-275 isn't certified for the pitot-static instruments like it is for attitude. IIRC the G5 has similar limitations. But a L3 ESI-500, which is designed to be a glass backup would replace all 3; plus it can add navigation too. Also in a small footprint.


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[Guest]

I’ve always been amazed that Mooney got away with putting the standby instruments way over on the right side of the panel.  How many G-1000 Ovation and Acclaim owners practice flying solely on the back up while sitting in the left seat?  Without a separate ILS indicator how do you make an approach and landing?

Clarence

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’ve always been amazed that Mooney got away with putting the standby instruments way over on the right side of the panel.  How many G-1000 Ovation and Acclaim owners practice flying solely on the back up while sitting in the left seat?  Without a separate ILS indicator how do you make an approach and landing?

Clarence

Here is my view of it. If I have a G1000 failure AHRS failure because I have an S-Tec A/P I can still keep the shiny side up and track a course selected. The compass card won't be correct but the needle can be centered. The reality however is with 2.5 hours and maybe more of standby time, I'm going to. a place where I can get a surveillance approach to let down on. As for flying "across the cockpit" I used to be an instrument instructor. Not that hard. The hardest thing is flying an ILS, raw data with the needles superimposed over the standby instrument, I've done that on Airbus and Boeing and that is why, I'm going for a surveillance approach or vector to the MVA and take a contact or visual approach.   In the range of things, not everything is 200 and 1/2 and the need for an ILS. If your destination is that, your alternate is required and on most alternate minimums you can get down without the need for an ILS.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’ve always been amazed that Mooney got away with putting the standby instruments way over on the right side of the panel.  How many G-1000 Ovation and Acclaim owners practice flying solely on the back up while sitting in the left seat?  Without a separate ILS indicator how do you make an approach and landing?

Clarence

I couldn't agree more. Everyone must have been thinking that the hardware on these things will never fail, but everything has a failure rate. Add software glitches and you better plan for a dark panel at some point. And with just attitude altimeter and airspeed and no requirement for a nav indicator I guess they at least wanted you to keep it straight and level until you ran out of gas.

An iPad or Garmin portable  and a portable com radio should be mandatory equipment when flying this setup.

[StevenL757]

Yeah, agree also.  Would be a wonderful setup if they moved the standby stack to the right of the primary GDU, and slid the radio module and the secondary GDU further right into the standby instruments area.

[kortopates]

Not my favorite placement either, but to be fair, lets be realistic. The backup instruments for the G1000 are not your first line of backup. Its critical for G1000 users (as I know those of you participating in his thread already well know) to understand the failure modes of their equipment and thus the G1000 and their AP. Consequently, those back up instruments will not be the first back up but more like a second level backup. The first failure a G1000 pilot can expect is a PFD failure before needing to alter their procedures. One of the nice things about the Mooney G1000 installation is that when the systems senses a PFD failure, there is no manual reversion mode enablement needed by the pilot as we had in earlier ones used for example in the C172's. Its automatic and as the PFD goes offline the MFD comes right up as a PFD in mere seconds. Now its important for the pilot to recognize that with the loss of PFD or MFD, they also loose the GIA-63W associated with that display, and that includes both NAV/COM and GPS. So when the MFD comes up in PFD mode, we only have access to a single #2 Nav/Com and its GPS. But we can still do everything with the MFD as a PFD except for using the #1 Nav/Com. Thus we're really in good shape. Its pretty going to take a complete electrical failure of some kind before we're flying off the standby's and with a standby alternator and two batteries that's pretty remote. But then that's what the portable battery operated backups are for - my iPad and GDL 39D. Otherwise we can talk about smaller failures like the loss of ADC which won't take out the entire PFD like it would for the first generation Aspen.  

FWIW, I've experienced the failure while IMC instructing in a G1000 Ovation and had no problem getting the plane back to home base and flying a GPS LPV approach - I just needed the controllers help with getting wx.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

Not my favorite placement either, but to be fair, lets be realistic. The backup instruments for the G1000 are not your first line of backup. Its critical for G1000 users (as I know those of you participating in his thread already well know) to understand the failure modes of their equipment and thus the G1000 and their AP. Consequently, those back up instruments will not be the first back up but more like a second level backup. The first failure a G1000 pilot can expect is a PFD failure before needing to alter their procedures. One of the nice things about the Mooney G1000 installation is that when the systems senses a PFD failure, there is no manual reversion mode enablement needed by the pilot as we had in earlier ones used for example in the C172's. Its automatic and as the PFD goes offline the MFD comes right up as a PFD in mere seconds. Now its important for the pilot to recognize that with the loss of PFD or MFD, they also loose the GIA-63W associated with that display, and that includes both NAV/COM and GPS. So when the MFD comes up in PFD mode, we only have access to a single #2 Nav/Com and its GPS. But we can still do everything with the MFD as a PFD except for using the #1 Nav/Com. Thus we're really in good shape. Its pretty going to take a complete electrical failure of some kind before we're flying off the standby's and with a standby alternator and two batteries that's pretty remote. But then that's what the portable battery operated backups are for - my iPad and GDL 39D. Otherwise we can talk about smaller failures like the loss of ADC which won't take out the entire PFD like it would for the first generation Aspen.  

FWIW, I've experienced the failure while IMC instructing in a G1000 Ovation and had no problem getting the plane back to home base and flying a GPS LPV approach - I just needed the controllers help with getting wx.

Agreed, except for the single point of failure in a Mooney G-1000 is the single AHRS, I have a customer who has experienced this failure mode.

Cirrus did it right with dual AHRS set up.

Clarence

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Agreed, except for the single point of failure in a Mooney G-1000 is the single AHRS, I have a customer who has experienced this failure mode.
Cirrus did it right with dual AHRS set up.
Clarence

I can't disagree with you there! Redundant AHRS would be nice. But most of the G1000 fleet has access to a backup AHRS from their GTX-345. Far from ideal since it's not integrated with the G1000 and only usable with an iPad. But its my third backup after my ESI-500 with at least an hour of battery time.


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Edited June 4, 2020 by kortopates

[GeeBee]

A second AHRS LRU would be nice, but I would imagine it would drive up costs beyond what people were willing to go. However, if I had a G1000 with the GFC-700 autopilot, it would be what I want. With the rate based S-55X I feel pretty good with a single AHRS LRU.