Pattern and landing speeds.

[PT20J]

Streamlined fixed gear can be low drag and fool proof. Lower weight, too.

[Blue on Top]

11 hours ago, Ibra said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3115647/

@Ibra  Awesome read.  On an off topic to this thread, this is exactly why training is not the right answer to great reductions in LOC accidents.  I would bet that a very high percentage of people that die in fatal stall/spin/spiral accidents know that stalling/spiraling an airplane in the pattern is a bad idea.  There are areas of training that I think could help, though.  For example, engine failure on takeoff … plan ahead, before the throttle is advanced.  Train that flying the airplane to the accident could save your life.

@Hank  I know that 0 accidents is not achievable, but it can be a stretch goal.  If I miss my target, I save many more lives than if I say it's all the pilot's fault.  Accidents are a chain of events.  I just want to try to break one of the links.  Yes, there will always be better idiots.  There will always be gear up accidents in retractable gear airplanes (I want to lower that number).  There has never been a gear up accident in a fixed gear airplane.  Both landing gear configurations will continue to produce runway excursions, but that's a different chain of events.  As a good example to all of this, I just finished reading "Understanding Air France 447" (highly recommended).  The stall at 38,000 feet and descent to the ocean killing all on board has been blamed on pilot(s) error, but what can we learn from this tragedy that we can design differently to prevent it from happening again?  In other words, did we give the crew too much information?  Could we have presented the data differently?  I'm just looking for one link to break.

All y'all are great, and thanks for letting me think out load.  People look at me weird when I talk to myself  .  

PS. The Wichita, KS area goes into "essential travel only" for the next 30 days starting in 1.5 hours.  Forced time to work on solutions@blueontop.com  

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Streamlined fixed gear can be low drag and fool proof. Lower weight, too.

Low risk, yes. Foolproof? Hardly . . . .

This poor soul made an emergency landing on a frozen pond, hit a wingtip and broke the gear off . . . .

https://www.wcvb.com/article/plane-crashes-into-east-lake-in-halifax-massachusetts/30304164

Not what I would call foolish, but certainly unlucky! At least he was rescued quickly.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Hank

[Blue on Top]

13 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Streamlined fixed gear can be low drag and fool proof. Lower weight, too.

Anybody willing to try this with me?  It would NOT be a "C"/"D" difference.  I know the obstacles and how to certify!   There has to be a geared up airplane out there somewhere or one left to corrode on a ramp.  How do I get on the list of insurance companies that sell these "totaled" airplanes?  Seriously, Ron

PS.  The benefits could be huge: half insurance premiums, lower annual costs, higher useful load, etc. 

[PT20J]

Just now, Hank said:

Low risk, yes. Foolproof? Hardly . . . .

Foolproof in terms of lowering -- any fool can still crash an airplane.

[1001001]

On 3/24/2020 at 11:40 PM, Blue on Top said:

Anybody willing to try this with me?  It would NOT be a "C"/"D" difference.  I know the obstacles and how to certify!   There has to be a geared up airplane out there somewhere or one left to corrode on a ramp.  How do I get on the list of insurance companies that sell these "totaled" airplanes?  Seriously, Ron

PS.  The benefits could be huge: half insurance premiums, lower annual costs, higher useful load, etc. 

If you're serious about this, have a look at the landing gear on an RV-10.  Designed for 2700 lb gross weight, parts can be bought in a kit (I have them sitting right here), and the nose gear uses a Mooney-like puck arrangement as a shock absorber.  Having a close look at the parts might give clues as to how they could be scabbed onto a different airframe.  The weight savings would be significant.  The main issue I can see is that the RV-10 sits much higher off the ground than the Mooney, partly because the steel main legs need to be long enough to be able to deflect enough to absorb landing forces.  The RV landing forces are carried through some stout brackets to the center section of the spar carry through, whereas the Mooney forces are basically straight up to the spar out in the wing.  It would be a major effort to convert, I think.

 

 

 

 

The nose gear would be difficult, as the RV-10 nose gear attach is integral to the engine mount, and wouldn't have much to attach to up in the Mooney's nose gear well. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by 1001001

[Blue on Top]

@1001001  The RV gear is a good idea, but the load paths are completely different and the regulations are different, too …. which equates to HUGE certification efforts and expenses.  Although Don Maxwell may not agree with me , the Mooney gear is a good gear.  And fixing it in place will eliminate almost all the issues (and lots of weight) … not the donuts, though .

[PT20J]

The Mooney gear could be improved by

1. Replacing the stiff doughnuts with nice soft oleo struts,

2. Moving the main gear closer to the CG so the nose isn’t so heavy,

3. Designing a retract system where both the primary and emergency extension means don’t rely on the same tiny gear train.

 But, then it would be a Piper Arrow (which — except for the T-tails — is a smooth landing bird).

Skip

 

[Blue on Top]

23 minutes ago, PT20J said:

2.  The Mooney gear could be improved by

1. Replacing the stiff doughnuts with nice soft oleo struts,

2. Moving the main gear closer to the CG so the nose isn’t so heavy,

3. Designing a retract system where both the primary and emergency extension means don’t rely on the same tiny gear train.

 But, then it would be a Piper Arrow (which — except for the T-tails — is a smooth landing bird).  - Skip

1.  Is one willing to live with longer gear legs, further from centerline (wider gear stance)?

 2. Will the airplane tip over when entering?  … especially on the 2-door model?  Will rotation forces be too low?

3. LOL.  Although the Mooney gear is a rigging nightmare, through the linkages, it eliminates all the up and down locks and a hydraulic system … though free-fall for emergency extension is not an option.  

IMHO, fixed gear is the right answer … sorry speed fanatics.  We can get the speed other ways.  I need to do the math, but 242 at altitude isn't very high in KIAS.

Good to hear some new stuff on Mooney Space.

[philiplane]

Back on topic, pattern and landing speeds matter:

A Mooney M20K landed fast, ran off the end of the runway, and into an embankment yesterday in Honesdale PA. One more for the actuaries to consider when setting Mooney insurance premiums for next year.

[gsxrpilot]

10 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

IMHO, fixed gear is the right answer … sorry speed fanatics.  We can get the speed other ways.  I need to do the math, but 242 at altitude isn't very high in KIAS.

To my eye, fixed gear is ugly, and very uncool. All the cool airplanes are either retracts or tailwheels. And the very coolest are retractable tailwheel models. As this is just a hobby, toy, fun, activity, and since I'm spending significantly, it has to be "cool". 

A Honda Accord is so much better than a Porsche 911 in so many categories, but it won't turn any heads. And so you don't seen anyone in the throws of a mid-life crisis, out buying an Accord. It would be different if I was a pro pilot and needed the airplane for work. But that's not the typical mission for most Mooney drivers.

I was parked between two Cirrus's yesterday on the ramp in Casper, WY. All of us had landed short of our destinations because of weather. And we all ended up spending the night. With thunderstorms forecasted overnight, my Mooney went in the hangar. The Cirrus guys didn't care and left their airplanes tied down overnight on the ramp. Of course they are likely less susceptible to hail damage than I am, but later at the hotel over dinner, it was obvious that the Cirrus guys weren't nearly as passionate about their airplanes as I am about my Mooney. But then it's probably the same between someone buying a new car and someone maintaining a classic car. I don't see anything wrong with either position. But for me, it's got to be a retract.

[Ibra]

On 6/10/2020 at 5:36 AM, Blue on Top said:

We can get the speed other ways.  I need to do the math, but 242 at altitude isn't very high in KIAS.

You will need to get up there somehow and then you will need additional complexity to stay up there (e.g. pressurisation, oxygen, heater...) but happy to buy a retractable that automatically extends it's gear anytime it flies bellow 140IAS near 0ft ground or even near FL300 ceiling and retracts anywhere in between 
 

[1001001]

Could a short, high pressure gas strut be substituted for the rubber disc shock absorbers, in the same gear configuration?

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, 1001001 said:

Could a short, high pressure gas strut be substituted for the rubber disc shock absorbers, in the same gear configuration?

If you are willing to create about a 500 page document, doing a few years R&D and spending a few hundred K$ to sell a few of them, sure it can be done!

There is a good article in the May SportAviation magazine about getting an STC for new shock struts on a Howard DGA. That was a labor of love by someone who obviously had a lot of spare cash...

[Hank]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If you are willing to create about a 500 page document, doing a few years R&D and spending a few hundred K$ to sell a few of them, sure it can be done!

There is a good article in the May SportAviation magazine about getting an STC for new shock struts on a Howard DGA. That was a labor of love by someone who obviously had a lot of spare cash...

Then you need to get a PMA to manufacture and sell them, too . . .

[Andy95W]

17 minutes ago, Hank said:

Then you need to get a PMA to manufacture and sell them, too . . .

Actually, an STC covers all of that and dispenses with the need for a PMA.  That's why Sabremech's cowling is STCed but not PMAed, just like a Garmin G5.

[N201MKTurbo]

This thought thread will never go away!

Everyone starts out by saying what a wonderful design our Mooney airplanes are.

In the next sentence they want to tell you how stupid the engineers are and how any idiot could design a better airplane!

If you want an experimental airplane, go build one! All the cool kids are!

[Hank]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If you want an experimental airplane, go build one! All the cool kids are!

The "cool kids" apparently have more time and tools than I do. Besides, I would still need a plane to fly while building, and whoops! There go the construction funds . . . . .

[Marauder]

Back on topic, pattern and landing speeds matter:
A Mooney M20K landed fast, ran off the end of the runway, and into an embankment yesterday in Honesdale PA. One more for the actuaries to consider when setting Mooney insurance premiums for next year.

Cherry Ridge is one of those airports that can snag you. Stinky Pants suggested that we do a fly in there once (in IFR conditions to boot) and I reminded him that some of our fellow Mooney pilots hadn’t flown much lately (it was winter) and when they did, it was off of big runways.

When Cherry Ridge’s surrounding trees are under full canopy, that 2986’ displaced runway looks even shorter.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[1001001]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

This thought thread will never go away!

Everyone starts out by saying what a wonderful design our Mooney airplanes are.

In the next sentence they want to tell you how stupid the engineers are and how any idiot could design a better airplane!

If you want an experimental airplane, go build one! All the cool kids are!

I'm building an RV-10 for more or less precisely this reason.

[1001001]

4 hours ago, 1001001 said:

I'm building an RV-10 for more or less precisely this reason.

Please note, I'm not saying the Mooney engineers were idiots, I'm saying I want final control over what goes in my airplane.

[McMooney]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:28 AM, gsxrpilot said:

A Honda Accord is so much better than a Porsche 911 in so many categories, but it won't turn any heads. And so you don't seen anyone in the throws of a mid-life crisis, out buying an Accord. It would be different if I was a pro pilot and needed the airplane for work. But that's not the typical mission for most Mooney drivers.

 

WTH, how did these words even come out of your fingers.  Honda Accord, might as well have an electric MiniVan

[Hank]

22 minutes ago, McMooney said:

WTH, how did these words even come out of your fingers.  Honda Accord, might as well have an electric MiniVan

All depends on which model Accord. I used to have a top line Accord LXi, 5 speed, 125 hp, and it would hang door-to-door with a 300 hp Mustang GT up to redline in 2nd gear; it would hit 115 mph any day, and I saw 126 mph twice and not downhill!. My wife had an Accord ES 5-speed with a larger engine (2.2 vs. 2 liter) that was similarly fast. But a friend had the exact same Accord as mine but automatic, the tires wouldn't even spin; mine would spin to redline in first, then some more in 2nd . . . . I miss my 5 speed . . . . . .  

[Blue on Top]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:04 AM, Ibra said:

You will need to get up there somehow and then you will need additional complexity to stay up there (e.g. pressurisation, oxygen, heater...) but happy to buy a retractable that automatically extends it's gear anytime it flies bellow 140IAS near 0ft ground or even near FL300 ceiling and retracts anywhere in between 
 

@Ibra  On a good note, drag reduction works at all altitude and speeds.  Adding power and weight not so much .  Piper and Beech both had automatic gear and pilots/owners hated it.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

@Ibra  On a good note, drag reduction works at all altitude and speeds.  Adding power and weight not so much .  Piper and Beech both had automatic gear and pilots/owners hated it.

The auto gear on the Arrow was problematic in some accidents and most have since been disabled.    The Arrow that I used to fly had it disabled.