Selling the airplane and limiting the liability

[David_H]

Parting out a perfectly good airplane to minimize liability exposure is one of the most selfish things one could do with respect to GA.

Anyone thinking in those terms shouldn't be allowed to own an airplane.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Some aircraft insurance policies include coverage for liability of the sale of the aircraft for occurrences happening up to X months after the aircraft is sold and the policy canceled.

[David_H]

2 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I did purchase Mooney parts from a person several years ago that parted out his fully operational and airworthy F model.

He ( and his wife ) were attorneys. The reason for his action was for possible future liability issues.  

We can only hope that those people will never be allowed to sit in any airplane again. Parting out a fully operational and airworthy airplane is a scum move.

[PMcClure]

Handled properly, I don't think a normal person should not have any concern selling a plane. Sure, some lawyer could find liability and it depends on the state and the circumstances, etc... However, you have to determine the amount of risk, and assets you have and are comfortable taking. 

I fly a single engine, at night, in IMC and sometimes with passengers, like many others here. I take due precautions in all these situations, but I still take the risk. I have insurance to cover my responsibilities and assets.  Selling a plane should not be a high risk endeavor. If you have a lot of assets, get your lawyer to create some docs, and hope for the best. Should we all start tearing apart our planes because of liability concerns? Ridiculous! 

The OP's concern is his additional liability being his own mechanic. 

 Still have not been able to find any case where a normal owner of a certified plane has been liable for a buyers crash.  

[tmo]

5 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

IIRC there is a member here who cuts up the airframe (other than Alan). I can't remember the exact details why but it was a liability issue. Maybe because it was in a accident before?

There was this RV8 and a Reddit thread about the subject.  Not a Mooney, but...

[PMcClure]

4 minutes ago, tmo said:

There was this RV8 and a Reddit thread about the subject.  Not a Mooney, but...

Owner/builder with no mfg backing it is a very different scenario than a mechanic selling his Mooney maintained to Mfg standards. 

[ArtVandelay]

 Still have not been able to find any case where a normal owner of a certified plane has been liable for a buyers crash.  

I doubt you’re going to, not may aircraft owners are also AP/IAs and performing their own annuals. I would guess that’s less than 1% of the aircraft owners.

 

Tom

[PMcClure]

4 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I doubt you’re going to, not may aircraft owners are also AP/IAs and performing their own annuals. I would guess that’s less than 1% of the aircraft owners.

 

Tom

Any cases of just an owner, not a AP?

 

[tigers2007]

The account of the attorney's scrapping their plane is evidence on how ridiculous the US tort system is. No matter what signatures are written on paper, someone is always on the hook. This crap happens with probate all the time too regardless of how well written a will is. If someone makes a claim outside of the will get ready to spend some money. I'm curious that after the J.D. Mooney was parted out what liabilities still remain? Like if their old magneto ended up in an aircraft that wrecked due to an ignition issue, are they still on the hook? Maybe that's why they scuttle ships all the time in the ocean. Out of sight, out of mind. 

[ArtVandelay]

Any cases of just an owner, not a AP?

 

I doubt it. There was the case owner(builder?) of a Vans aircraft crashed because of a problem with a fuel hose connection, they went after Vans, because they have the money, and I believe Vans won their part and put the blame on the owner, don’t recall if he was original owner-builder. Maybe someone has a better recollection of what the outcome was.

 

 

Tom

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, tmo said:

There was this RV8 and a Reddit thread about the subject.  Not a Mooney, but...

Experimental is different, the builder is tagged with long-term liability. Same with certified, but we didn't build our Mooneys. 

[Bravoman]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

Not very helpful. Please point out the mistake(s), explain what is wrong and give correct guidance instead.

If you work on an aircraft and the work is subsequently the proximate cause or a contributing cause of a failure that leads to injury or worse you can be held liable just like anyone else. It doesn’t matter who you are or whether you hold an A&P certificate. When you work on the aircraft unfortunately you assume certain duties under the law that you don’t otherwise assume if you are simply a pilot owner who doesn’t work on the plane. The assumption of duty under the law is a strange thing. If I don’t have a relationship or duty to you I can watch you drown in the lake with no legal repercussions. However once I undertake an effort to save you I also undertake the duty to carry out the mission in a non negligent fashion. This is why Good Samaritan statutes have been enacted in many jurisdictions to protect physicians  who provide emergency care to a person in  extremis on the sidewalk from tort liability.

I have also been involved as counsel in a few aviation related cases over the years. 

Don't shoot the messenger  

Edited January 19, 2020 by Bravoman

[ArtVandelay]

Another idea is to put the plane in a LLC, then sell the LLC, assuming you stopped doing your own maintenance, you should be isolated from an lawsuits, even from 3rd parties. 

[Andy95W]

Cliffy, I feel the way you do.  And with my previous 2 airplanes, breathed a huge sigh of relief 13 months after I'd signed off the last Annual Inspection.

One possible way to give some relief would be to require the purchaser have a pre-purchase Inspection, and have it logged in the books with that A&Ps signature.  Hopefully that would encourage him/her to roll it into an Annual.

[GeeBee]

There is an easy answer. Buy some seller's liability insurance. It is cheap. I just sold my PA-18 and it was a single 500 dollar one time premium. End of problem.

 

 

[cliffy]

I'm thinking when it comes time to time, start 1 year out and have an annual done completely by someone else and then a complete new annual by someone else prior to sale,  2 annuals by someone else should distance me from most anything. 

I'll look into the LLC aspect also. 

Time to call the lawyers in. 

[MooneyMitch]

51 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I'm thinking when it comes time to time, start 1 year out and have an annual done completely by someone else and then a complete new annual by someone else prior to sale,  2 annuals by someone else should distance me from most anything. 

I'll look into the LLC aspect also. 

Time to call the lawyers in. 

“Time to call the lawyers in”.....In a court of law, it’s not necessarily about the law and the interpretation of it, it’s sometimes about the process. Anything can, and does happen there.  There are no guarantees of an outcome.

As with the actions of the attorney couple that parted out their airplane, one could surmise that with their legal experiences of no guarantee of an outcome of a court case, they chose the path they felt offered less risk for them.

Risk management, and as previously mentioned, as with anything in life....... risk tolerance comes into play.

 

[David_H]

3 hours ago, cliffy said:

I'm thinking when it comes time to time, start 1 year out and have an annual done completely by someone else and then a complete new annual by someone else prior to sale,  2 annuals by someone else should distance me from most anything. 

I'll look into the LLC aspect also. 

Time to call the lawyers in. 

You could be over thinking this.

It appears as if you're a conscientious person. It's very likely that the maintenance history is much better on your plane than many other planes out there. Not only have you put your name in the logbooks, but you've sat in the seat and put hours on the airframe after the maintenance events. That has to count for something.

Having the plane signed off after an annual inspection by a person with no affiliation to you or the plane would be about as good as one could ever do.

Edited January 19, 2020 by David_H

[Sabremech]

Hi Cliff, as a fellow A/P/IA I’ll offer my view. I don’t do annuals on small GA aircraft and have only done a few in my career. My feelings are that the only thing I’m liable for would be something directly tied to negligence on my part. Once an annual is done and the airplane leaves your hangar, how are we to know whats been done to that aircraft by the owner or other mechanics and not put in the logbook? I feel my signature only states that aircraft is airworthy or in safe condition for flight right then and there. Once the owner takes it, the liability falls to them except for that negligence term that will fall to me until the next annual or condition inspection is done. 
Just my thoughts, but I can’t live my life worrying about a what if.

David

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, Sabremech said:

Hi Cliff, as a fellow A/P/IA I’ll offer my view. I don’t do annuals on small GA aircraft and have only done a few in my career. My feelings are that the only thing I’m liable for would be something directly tied to negligence on my part. Once an annual is done and the airplane leaves your hangar, how are we to know whats been done to that aircraft by the owner or other mechanics and not put in the logbook? I feel my signature only states that aircraft is airworthy or in safe condition for flight right then and there. Once the owner takes it, the liability falls to them except for that negligence term that will fall to me until the next annual or condition inspection is done. 
Just my thoughts, but I can’t live my life worrying about a what if.

David

FWIW, I'm in A&P school right now and that's how it's been conveyed here, i.e., the signature on the annual only attests to its condition and airworthiness at that moment.  Once it leaves your custody you have no control or visibility into what may or may not happen to it that affects its condition.
 

19 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Caveat empor applies the same as it does with a car.  

I don't think the concern is as much with the buyer as it is with the buyer's heirs should something bad happen.

[salty]

On 1/18/2020 at 12:20 AM, cliffy said:

Not that I'm ready to quit aviation or sell the Mooney but the thought has me wondering about the liability after sale.

Specifically. as I do all my own maintenance (A&P since 1967)  

Has anyone given this a thought or been down this road?   I haven't read anything about it here. 

Might be different if the new pilot makes a smoking hole and the previous owner had ALL the maintenance done is shops I guess but in the case of owner assisted annuals and owner preventive maintenance maybe a different set of circumstances. 

Maybe going through 2 annuals with no owner maintenance in the logs might be enough? I don't know.

Anyone want to postulate?

 

Just curious, what is "owner logged maintenance"? I do a lot of the work on my plane including assisted annuals, but my A&P/IA logs the work. Not sure how someone would know who turned the wrench, even at an MSC, it probably wasn't the IA that signed the annual.

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, salty said:

Just curious, what is "owner logged maintenance"? I do a lot of the work on my plane including assisted annuals, but my A&P/IA logs the work. Not sure how someone would know who turned the wrench, even at an MSC, it probably wasn't the IA that signed the annual.

Maintenance you do by yourself under the "preventative maintenance" rules, e.g., oil changes, you should log as the owner/pilot.

[salty]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

Maintenance you do by yourself under the "preventative maintenance" rules, e.g., oil changes, you should log as the owner/pilot.

That doesn't seem to fit in the context of his post, but it makes sense I guess. If your buyer is going to be worried that you did your own oil change, find another buyer, and no, I wouldn't worry about liability from doing an oil change prior to selling.

Edited January 19, 2020 by salty

[Guest]

I’m curious to know if any maintainers have ever been criminally charged, convicted and imprisoned as a result of a maintenance error?

Anyone know first hand?

Clarence

[Andy95W]

The problem isn’t really one of criminal negligence or fiscal liability.

What scares me is when the pilot does something stupid and runs out of gas. Totally pilot error, but guess who the widow and insurance company is going to sue?  The last A&P to sign the logbook and last IA to sign off the annual. I’m sure they wouldn’t be held liable, but who wants to spend thousands of dollars to defend yourself in court for something you didn’t do wrong?

And I have seen that exact scenario happen, although it was a maintenance shop and not an owner/A&P.  I trust my friends to not sue me, I don’t trust their widows and insurance companies.