Andy95W Posted December 13, 2019 Report Posted December 13, 2019 13 hours ago, ilovecornfields said: (he claimed having your dog with you made it unloggabble as solo). 2 2 Quote
Hank Posted December 13, 2019 Report Posted December 13, 2019 24 minutes ago, Andy95W said: I've been around aviation for a long time and I think this is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. @ilovecornfields 's instructor really needs to talk to a local DPE to see how this is actually interpreted by his local FSDO. Shouldn't all FSDOs interpret something this basic the same way???? Quote
201er Posted December 13, 2019 Report Posted December 13, 2019 54 minutes ago, Andy95W said: Yes, I do! I'm not sure if it's changed (and I doubt that it has) but when I took my Commercial checkride back in the 90s, "Solo" meant without an instructor present to provide assistance, with the implication that another pilot also did not provide assistance. My solo cross country was one of the (many) cross country flights I took with my wife (who is not a licensed pilot). When I was instructing 20 years ago, this was exactly how I sent my students for their checkrides, and never had an issue with any DPE or the FSDO. And with more than a year and a half of flight time at this point, I sure as hell ain't gonna start logging that now. Dunno how it was 20 years ago, I’ve only been flying 15. But this rule hasn’t changed in 15. 61.51 (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft. 3 Quote
kortopates Posted December 13, 2019 Report Posted December 13, 2019 Dunno how it was 20 years ago, I’ve only been flying 15. But this rule hasn’t changed in 15. 61.51 (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft. That's the way I remember it 30 yrs ago too. And I do also remember when a pilot friend's wife was doing her x-ctry solo for the Private, he actually flew right behind her in his Mooney - I thought that was bizarre. But that was only 15-20 yrs ago.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
Andy95W Posted December 13, 2019 Report Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, 201er said: Dunno how it was 20 years ago, I’ve only been flying 15. But this rule hasn’t changed in 15. 61.51 (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft. Well, I'll be dipped in molasses. I sure am glad I don't have to worry about this anymore. It's y'all's problem now. (I will still maintain that unless your dog is a licensed pilot, he doesn't qualify as an occupant under 61.51.) 1 Quote
RLCarter Posted December 13, 2019 Report Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Andy95W said: (I will still maintain that unless your dog is a licensed pilot, he doesn't qualify as an occupant under 61.51.) What if the dog isn’t current or has had their ticket pulled? Asking for a friend 2 Quote
EricJ Posted December 13, 2019 Report Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, RLCarter said: What if the dog isn’t current or has had their ticket pulled? Asking for a friend The dog cannot be safety pilot if he's on Basic Med. 1 2 Quote
PT20J Posted December 15, 2019 Report Posted December 15, 2019 1. As someone mentioned, as far as the FAA is concerned, you only need to document the flight time required to show currency or for a certificate or rating. There may be other reasons to keep track, but the FAA doesn’t care. 2. The correct way to log flight time is per the FAR Part 1 definition of flight time: “Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing” As a practical matter, I have never heard of the FAA or a DPE asking how flight time was measured for logbook entries. I can’t see a problem with using any method that is reasonably similar to the Part 1 definition. 3. FSDOs often differ in interpreting regulations because the regulations are vague in many cases. FAA General Counsel Legal interpretations are issued as necessary to clarify the intent of the rules. I seriously doubt that the FAA would maintain that it intended a dog to be considered an occupant, but unless there is a legal interpretation, who knows for sure? Skip Quote
Immelman Posted December 15, 2019 Report Posted December 15, 2019 Log what you want to log..... whatever floats your boat! But its really only needed to prove the requirements to obtain your PPL, and then later (for specific portions) of your CPL. I quit logging solo many years ago. I do log some other things that I don't really need to just for my own amusement. Quote
Hank Posted December 15, 2019 Report Posted December 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Immelman said: I do log some other things that I don't really need to just for my own amusement. Much if that goes into a spreadsheet: firsr visit to new airports; first time in each class airspace; first passenger; first airsick passenger; first actual IMC; first overwater; first Compassion flight; first IPC;etc. A list of airplanes flown. Milestones such as first lesson; each checkride; 500 hours: 1000 hirs when I reach it; etc. Yeah, it's geeky but it's fun! 3 Quote
jlunseth Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) There are actually quite a few odd logging issues. I never thought “solo” and “PIC” were one of them though. You can be both PIC and solo, and as several have pointed out, solo PIC time is required for some ratings. Provisions like 61.129(a)(4) make it really clear. It requires time that is both PIC and solo. A whole other category is “night” time. Several of the Sec. 61 provisions require “night” time, which is civil twilight, about a half hour after sunset. But to fly passengers more than one hour after sunset you need three landings and takeoffs more than one hour after sunset in the last 90 days. Then, to get a commercial, you need 10 landings in VFR night conditions at a towered airport. 61.129(b)(4)(ii). I fly out of a towered airport, but the tower closes at 10, so log entries that just say they were in night conditions and at KFCM don’t cut it, because the tower might or might not have been open. Who logs “landing in VFR night conditions with tower in operation.” When I did my commercial, I just went out and did 10 night towered landings and logged that, although I probably already had at least 100 such landings, just not logged right. When I do my “every 90 day night landings” now, I make sure to log that they were more than 1 hr. after sunset, not just at “night.” Edited December 20, 2019 by jlunseth Quote
Ricky_231 Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 On 12/13/2019 at 12:22 AM, Skates97 said: I guess I'm the odd one out. If I'm alone in the plane I log it as PIC and Solo, if I have someone with me I just log it as PIC. I use myflightbook.com and you can record all kinds of different fields and if you need an 8710 form you just click on it and it has all the totals for you. Same here - my paper logbook has PIC/Solo under the same column, so I make a note in the remarks section, and I have a backup spreadsheet + Foreflight where I make the distinction between solo and PIC. The distinction being when solo there's literally no one there to assist you and your CRM/organization has to be really on point - even a non-pilot passenger can be pretty helpful in high-workload situations (e.g. "can you grab that pad and pencil for me while I talk on the radio?" "do you see a small plane outside your window, your 2 o'clock, below us?" "can you see the airport? it has a flashing green/white light" while configuring for the approach etc. etc. etc.) By the way, when I was getting my instrument training, all the dual time was PIC, but definitely not solo (CFII on board). And as someone already mentioned, it matters for your commercial. Quote
midlifeflyer Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) On 12/13/2019 at 1:13 PM, Andy95W said: I've been around aviation for a long time and I think this is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. @ilovecornfields 's instructor really needs to talk to a local DPE to see how this is actually interpreted by his local FSDO. Might be good for a laugh at the FSDO lunch. "hey, some guy called this morning to ask if he could log solo with his dog on board! I told hem he couldn't :D" Edited December 20, 2019 by midlifeflyer 1 Quote
steingar Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) I log tach time, since the tach is right there. I never think to look at my watch when spooling up. Never thought to get that off Foreflight, does make sense. But I log every light off the tach anyway for the fuel logs, so it's already there. DPE doesn't like it he can suck something unmentionable. Edited December 20, 2019 by steingar Quote
DXB Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 On 12/13/2019 at 12:01 AM, ilovecornfields said: His reason was that he has to fill out the IACRA form for my commercial pilot checkride and I guess it asks for “solo” flight time (he claimed having your dog with you made it unloggabble as solo). On 12/13/2019 at 1:13 PM, Andy95W said: I've been around aviation for a long time and I think this is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. @ilovecornfields 's instructor really needs to talk to a local DPE to see how this is actually interpreted by his local FSDO. What about when your 'lil pup is being a very good boy by acting as an essential crew member? I do not see this explicitly prohibited in the FARs. Checkmate. 1 Quote
jlunseth Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 Yeah, I don't know about the dog in the plane thing. I don't have dogs anymore, but when I did, I had them in a harness strapped to a seat belt. They didn't always like it, but that's better than having the dog jump on the controls. There was just a NASA report where the pilot had the dog do exactly that, resulting in the pilot getting into the Bravo airspace by 1,000 feet altitude, inside the DC FRZ, and the dog hit some buttons, like on the transponder, resulting in the pilot squawking an incorrect code or something like that. It would have been funny if the consequences weren't so dire. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 There was just a NASA report where the pilot had the dog do exactly that, resulting in the pilot getting into the Bravo airspace by 1,000 feet altitude, inside the DC FRZ, and the dog hit some buttons, like on the transponder, resulting in the pilot squawking an incorrect code or something like that. It would have been funny if the consequences weren't so dire. This is a modern version of “the dog ate my homework”.I find it incredulous that a dog can hit transponder buttons. Older ones are dials, new ones require 4 numbers and enter or the transponder will ignore it. Tom 1 Quote
Ricky_231 Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 35 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: This is a modern version of “the dog ate my homework”. I find it incredulous that a dog can hit transponder buttons. Older ones are dials, new ones require 4 numbers and enter or the transponder will ignore it. Tom this: I departed this morning on a Special Flight Rules Area (SFRA) flight plan, and my intention was to maintain 1,400 feet until [laterally] clear of [Class] B airspace, which would keep me clear of the Flight Restricted Zone and all [Class] B airspace. At approximately 1,200 feet in my climb, my dog, which had been harnessed in the back seat, leapt into the front passenger seat. In doing so, he hit the dash, somehow managing to clear my flight plan out of my Garmin 430. He pulled my GDL 39 out of the cigarette lighter (my backup navigation), he knocked my tablet (also my backup navigation) onto the passenger side floor, and he ripped the microphone port of my headset out at the connector. I didn’t initially realize that had happened, and I could still hear the radio because the listening port was still plugged in. In trying to keep my dog off of the controls, and flipping the autopilot off to hand-fly, I inadvertently made a climbing turn to 2,200 feet and may have broken into Class B airspace. Upon recognizing this, I immediately descended and made my initial radio call to Potomac. At the time, I thought they had acknowledged my call, but in retrospect, I don’t think they did. A few minutes later as I was still trying to re-trim the airplane, Potomac was trying to reach me, and it was clear to me they couldn’t hear me. It was at this point that I realized my microphone port had been unplugged, and the cord was now wrapped around my 50 pound dog, which was dead weight on top of it. I finally freed the cord and made contact with Potomac. In doing so, my concentration was broken, and when I looked at my position, I was either in or very close to violating the FRZ. I immediately turned around and again made contact with Potomac. At this point forward I stayed clear of Bravo and the FRZ. 1 Quote
ilovecornfields Posted December 20, 2019 Author Report Posted December 20, 2019 I actually thought that Callback narrative was pretty funny. I almost expected it to say “and then my dog entered the wrong airport on my GPS and I flew right over the White House without knowing it. Bad boy!” I guess you still get immunity though, right? I should start flying with a dog just so I have an excuse when I bust altitude. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted December 20, 2019 Report Posted December 20, 2019 I assume most of you have driven with your dogs many times before you put them in a plane. If you allow the dog to sit in the front seat, guess what’s going to happen when you go flying? But if you always put them in the back, dogs are creatures of habit, I would expect they should naturally behave like they do in a car. If they behave in the car, I would think they behave in a plane. Although I would take precautions especially on their first flight, just in case they act unexpectedly, maybe because the of the greater noise.Tom Quote
gsxrpilot Posted December 21, 2019 Report Posted December 21, 2019 My dog flies with me often. The only time she's interfered with the flight was when I was asked by ATC the reason for the change in my IFR flight plan and the request to land immediately. And I responded, "the dog's gotta shit". ATC was fine with that explanation, and expedited our descent and landing clearance. That only happened once, other wise, she is an excellent passenger and occasional copilot. Quote
tmo Posted December 21, 2019 Report Posted December 21, 2019 My wiener dog, aka dachshund, usually rides in the passenger footwell of a car. He's learned that staying put down there is better than getting tossed in the trunk for the duration of the trip. He usually just puts his head on the center console, or curls up down there and goes to sleep, depending on trip length. He hasn't logged any airplane time yet, solo or otherwise. 1 Quote
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