Screaming Eagle conversion

[MIm20c]

I’ve seen a few Eagles come up for sale with 280 hp top prop conversion vs the 310 hp screaming eagle setup.  Wondering if there is a price difference vs the $5k STC for the ovation?  Why stop short unless the stc is not needed for 280 hp?  Does one need to buy another stc upgrade to change a 280 eagle to a 310?

[carusoam]

Originally there were two STCs required...prop and engine. To go from O1 to O3 powered...

The owner of the STC started ‘discounting’ the cost of the second STC... on a case by case basis...

Then... the STC was bought by Mooney.

The Eagle starts with a much lower power rating... so moving to 280hp would be worth it...

But, if you are starting with a standard Eagle... going direct to the 310hp /topprop makes the most sense...

If you are buying a 280hp Eagle and want to update to 310... that sounds like going from O1 to O3 power... best done at OH.

Asking Mooney directly May net the answer... or asking an MSC may help as well... MS has a couple of MSCs around...

The expensive part is getting the TopProp... if the bird has that already... adjusting rpm and FF and getting a red line on the tach costs a few bux more...

The TopProp comes in three versions... thick, thin and composite... see which one the plane has on it...

Thin, is the Acclaim’s prop...

If you have all the hardware, and all you need is the STC to legally/logically update your POH... go for it!

Good times ahead...

Discussing the tech details with the STC writer is one of those memorable discussions that you will ever have... 

Also look into setting FF properly for best CHT control... at least max set point that the STC allows...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[M20S Driver]

I did the STC from 280 to 310 mostly for adding 168 lbs to GW and more horses for high altitude take-offs.  I talked to  the STC owner/ writer, (Bob Minnis) a few times and finally bought the STC right when he sold it to Mooney.  My cost was the partial STC (i already had the 280HP) and adjusting the governor and TAC to 2700 RPM.  I thank Bob in my heart every  time when I take-off from Truckee (6000 feet msl and 8000 DA in summer) and appreciate the improved cooling (lower CHT) due to higher fuel flow. 

[carusoam]

Bob Minnis... is THE man! 

I couldn't write notes fast enough to keep up with all the tremendous experience he was laying down...

If he gave a presentation at Mooney Summit... I would sit through that one twice... (idea for @mike_elliott)

It would also be interesting to IO360drivers because many of the same topics of operation apply to both engines... Lycoming didn’t put half of the details into their manuals...

The power available from an IO550 at full tilt... is awesome!   At 310hp it is pretty tame... even though it feels incredibly Corvette powerful.

An experimental IO550 with a pair of snails has got to be extra cool...

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

Good Idea Anthony.

[MIm20c]

So the top prop stc that is included with purchase has the ability to increase the eagle to 280 hp and he GW increase without buying a separate stc?  To increase a 280 eagle to 310 would require the 5k Mooney stc?

[M20S Driver]

54 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

So the top prop stc that is included with purchase has the ability to increase the eagle to 280 hp and he GW increase without buying a separate stc?  To increase a 280 eagle to 310 would require the 5k Mooney stc?

My first STC was done prior to my purchase and it included the top prop and changing the max rpm from 2400 to 2500.  No GW increase and it stayed at 3200 lbs.

The second STC that I purchased from Mooney/Bob Minnis  increased the max rpm to 2700 and GW to 3368 lbs.

[carusoam]

S D,

Did they share the secret of the 100gallons of Fuel capacity with the STC?

That May have been performed by a hangar elf when he is taking care of the pixie hole to cool Cylinder #5...

PP things I have read around here, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[M20S Driver]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

S D,

Did they share the secret of the 100gallons of Fuel capacity with the STC?

That May have been performed by a hangar elf when he is taking care of the pixie hole to cool Cylinder #5...

PP things I have read around here, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

The fuel capacity increase is documented in the STC...  Please see attached.   

I did not drill a hole since I rarely need that much fuel and you can pump it slowly to 95 gallons.

This STC also covers switching the engine to IO-550-N

[Niko182]

You dont need to drill a hole. The tabs were added and you legally had to stop at the tabs. Theres no way id go past the tabs because thats "illegal". I also dont know from experience that you can fill them up to 100 gallons with no problem.

[carusoam]

legal issues aside... fuel capacity is placarded in several places... as a limitation...

 

Via inspection, a mechanic can verify that the Eagle got a long pipe at the fill cap. And verify there are no other changes... like where the tank’s vent is located...

WnB is probably the more important of the laws to be followed... a law of physics...
 

Drilling holes in the pipe... that takes skill and preparation... fuel and cutting metal don’t mix... dropping metal shaving in the tank would also be bad...

of course, parts from an O’s tank would fit pretty well in an S’s tank...  

 

Filling the O to the top the first time after TT, comes with a less than comfortable feeling... just wondering if everything has been done correctly...  100gallons of fuel is a lot... and wondering how far up hill the vents are...

I first met Cris an MSer with an Eagle, back in 2011... we were discussing variations between the Eagle and O... in 2012 Cris helped me with the transition to 310hp on my O...

I went with the IO550(N) for the weight/balance benefit... haven’t run into any issues with the funky cylinders yet...

Cris had a Screamin’ Eagle... I got the Standing O... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Darrolio]

Hi All! 

I will soon be the proud new owner of a Mooney Eagle with the 280HP / 2500 RPM Screaming Eagle conversion, and I'd like to upgrade it to the 310 HP / 2700 RPM STC.  It already has the 3-blade Hartzell prop from the original conversion.  a) Can I do it?  b) Who is the person now to call for the STC?... it seems it has changed hands recently.  

Looking forward to getting active on these boards!  

Thank you!

Edited October 9, 2022 by Darrolio
Fixed prop brand

[Niko182]

7 minutes ago, Darrolio said:

Hi All! 

I am inheriting a Mooney Eagle with the 280HP / 2500 RPM Screaming Eagle conversion (I know, I'm very very lucky), and I'd like to upgrade it to the 310 HP / 2700 RPM STC.  It already has the 3-blade McCauley prop from the original conversion.  a) Can I do it?  b) Who is the person now to call for the STC?... it seems it has changed hands recently.  

Looking forward to getting active on these boards!  

Thank you!

If it has a McCauley prop, you can't do the upgrade. You need one of the 3 Hartzell SS top props (Alu thick, Alu thin, Composite), or the 4 blade MT prop. The McCauley doesn't fall under the STC. If this is the one you're looking at, it has a hartzell and the correct prop for the screaming eagle. https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/217434653/1999-mooney-m20s-eagle-piston-single-aircraft. When you do the conversion, you'll need a new T20 Governor, a tach that can read 2700 instead of 2500. You'll already have an added tach because of the original stc, so you'll probably need to send that tach back to where it came from and have it adjusted to a 2700 rpm red line. Fuel flow will go from whatever it is to about 28 to 30 gph. Finally, call around for the STC. A lot of MSC's will bump up the price of the stc, but you can find some shops that will sell it to you at the retail price of $4,995. It's a relatively easy STC to do.

[Darrolio]

14 hours ago, Niko182 said:

If it has a McCauley prop, you can't do the upgrade. You need one of the 3 Hartzell SS top props (Alu thick, Alu thin, Composite), or the 4 blade MT prop. The McCauley doesn't fall under the STC. If this is the one you're looking at, it has a hartzell and the correct prop for the screaming eagle. https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/217434653/1999-mooney-m20s-eagle-piston-single-aircraft. When you do the conversion, you'll need a new T20 Governor, a tach that can read 2700 instead of 2500. You'll already have an added tach because of the original stc, so you'll probably need to send that tach back to where it came from and have it adjusted to a 2700 rpm red line. Fuel flow will go from whatever it is to about 28 to 30 gph. Finally, call around for the STC. A lot of MSC's will bump up the price of the stc, but you can find some shops that will sell it to you at the retail price of $4,995. It's a relatively easy STC to do.

Thank you very much for this helpful info Niko182!  I misspoke - it is a Hartzell.  I will start calling around!  

Edited October 9, 2022 by Darrolio

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, Darrolio said:

Thank you very much for this helpful info Niko182!  I misspoke - it is a Hartzell.  I will start calling around!  

Not in any way to scare you, but all other Mooneys that have 270hp and above came with factory rudder trim. The Eagle, since it came with only 244hp did not have rudder trim. With the 310 hp STC you can leave the runway fast without a lot of right rudder, much more than you would expect.

A few years back, on his first take-off in his new-to-him 310hp Eagle, the new owner crashed it. It appears that he had no transition training. When you watch the video in the NTSB report (from a hangar surveillance cam) it's consistent with something unexpected happening on take-off roll, like a seat sliding back and unexpected need for full right rudder or possibly elevator trim set full up. Probably two or three unexpected things happened in a few seconds. Not pleasant to watch.

Enjoy your new Mooney, but please get some specific Long Body, 310 HP Mooney training.

 

[carusoam]

Lance,

With all due respect…

If we are discussing the same accident…

The 310hp Screamin’ Eagle crashed in view of the Transition Trainer that just finished supplying the training to the pilot…

Bob Cxxx, gave his input to the investigation after the accident…  Bob has been a Mooney factory recommended CFII…

 

Going forwards from this point…

As a pilot with low hours…

It does not make a ton of sense to jump past high performance Mooneys… into ultra high performance Mooneys… as the additional torque and power come on fast and can be a bit surprising…

 

There is one cool option…

If you already own a 280hp Mooney… learn to fly it well…

Then upgrade to 310hp… after a year of things going really well….!

The extra 10% hp number doesn’t really capture the performance difference…

 

The extra 30 measly hp translates into 1/3 less T/O distance, and 2X the climb rate, and easily masks the feelings of flying too slowly…

A real tragedy if flying by feelings… and your feelings are not well calibrated from experience… 

 

PP thoughts only, not deeply knowledgable about any one pilot’s experience…

 

For anyone considering a path to Long Bodies and high powered Mooneys… always consider getting the best Transition Training available… no matter what your prior experience level is…

This is true for people with B747 experience as well… a high powered Mooney or even a low powered Mooney can be different enough from any prior experience… there isn’t any room for major mistakes…

My first reading of a Mooney accident was made by a CFI… somewhere around 1999…

Mooneys are easy to fly… with the right training… just to cover all the mistakes everyone else has made in the past… 

We learn from other peoples errors… so we don’t have the opportunity to repeat them ourselves…

My favorite CFII flew a Screamin’ Eagle… with all 310horses…

There are few better planes to select from…

Go LB!

Then select the level of HP…

Then select the TC/TN that matches….

Don’t be in too much of a rush…  Kind of a Catfish Hunter alert….  
 

and… really know before you go… and take passengers with you…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI….

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

As far as finding the STC to add the full 310 to any qualifying Long Body…

This is available from Mooney… as they bought the STC years ago…

Probably best to consult your favorite MSC to have it installed….prop, Gov adjustment, redline on the instrument…

Other Mooney mechanics are pretty well qualified at installing this package as well… being an MSC was not a requirement in the past…

Go Screamin’ Eagle and Standing O!

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Lance,

With all due respect…

If we are discussing the same accident…

The 310hp Screamin’ Eagle crashed in view of the Transition Trainer that just finished supplying the training to the pilot…

Bob Cxxx, gave his input to the investigation after the accident…  Bob has been a Mooney factory recommended CFII…

 

Thanks for the correction - I wasn't aware that Bob C gave him training. I know Bob and have flown with him - outstanding CFI.

I finally read the final report this morning - somehow missed when it came out. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/231853

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Thanks for the correction - I wasn't aware that Bob C gave him training. I know Bob and have flown with him - outstanding CFI.

I finally read the final report this morning - somehow missed when it came out. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/231853

This accident gave me chills…

The pilot was very conscientious and followed the usual guidance about buying his plane and getting the TT…

I used Bob C for TT when moving up to the M20R…. A great CFI… a great person.

 

Not sure if we will ever get the final report of any part failure, or procedural failure… or just PIC…

The ADSB shows the chilling details… to go with the video….

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry Pressley]

anyone know where I could pick up an original eagle two blade prop?   423 231 3491

[Niko182]

Johnson prop in Bakersfield bought mine. Try there maybe?

[Echo]

Meh. I found the transition from an E to a Missile to be benign. Knots vs mph…The Mid body with 300hp lands just like the 200hp E. Not rocket science. 

[Fly Boomer]

On 6/9/2023 at 11:10 PM, Echo said:

Not rocket science. 

Missile science.