Annunciator Panel required equipment ?

[Emmet]

I was just looking at the type certificate and couldn‘t find anything about the annunciator panel in a K model.

Does anybody know if it is a legally required part or could it be removed or replaced with single annunciators ?

[ArtVandelay]

I was just looking at the type certificate and couldn‘t find anything about the annunciator panel in a K model.
Does anybody know if it is a legally required part or could it be removed or replaced with single annunciators ?

Yes, you can, I did.


Tom

[kortopates]

But I imagine it will cost you far more than the ~$400 I spent to just repair my fried unit by the OEM - Came back with new faceplate looking like new.


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[ArtVandelay]

But I imagine it will cost you far more than the ~$400 I spent to just repair my fried unit by the OEM - Came back with new faceplate looking like new.


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Depends, I removed ram air, vacuum, 900 has fuel and voltage annunciations, so that left me with gear down and gear unsafe. Just 2 lights, sold the annunciator...broke even, plus I had room now for Aera 660.


Tom

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Depends, I removed ram air, vacuum, 900 has fuel and voltage annunciations, so that left me with gear down and gear unsafe. Just 2 lights, sold the annunciator...broke even, plus I had room now for Aera 660.


Tom

Your J didn't have a "starter" engaged annunciator light? K's do.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Your J didn't have a "starter" engaged annunciator light? K's do.

My ‘78 J didn’t, but my ‘94 J has one. 

[Emmet]

Depends, I removed ram air, vacuum, 900 has fuel and voltage annunciations, so that left me with gear down and gear unsafe. Just 2 lights, sold the annunciator...broke even, plus I had room now for Aera 660.


Tom

That is close to my case. After installation of a G3X and removal of the vacuum system all I have left is gear down, gear unsafe, voltage and alternate air.
Gear should be covered by the mechanical indication on the floor, voltage warning is within the G3X.
That leaves me with just the alternate air ....

[ArtVandelay]

Your J didn't have a "starter" engaged annunciator light? K's do.

No. Most of the annunciator lights are just that. The electronics is for voltage warnings and the low fuel I think. If the starter engaged is just a light tied to the starter relay + terminal as I suspect it would be, then it’s easy to replace. The JPI took care of the complex ones (fuel & voltage).


Tom

[kortopates]

10 hours ago, Emmet said:

 

That is close to my case. After installation of a G3X and removal of the vacuum system all I have left is gear down, gear unsafe, voltage and alternate air.
Gear should be covered by the mechanical indication on the floor, voltage warning is within the G3X.
That leaves me with just the alternate air ....

 

First consideration should be if G3X can be primary for all the items you are looking to replace the Mooney annunciator (I don't know).

Forgot about alternate air. I'd personally consider that critical on a turbo charged air. For example, after ordinary maintenance you find that alternate air door opening up doing the run up from the ducting not properly connected when the cowling went back on, I sure wouldn't want to take off with that going on. That said its a microswitch at the alternate air door, and maybe Tom did a separate annunciator for it.

I personally wouldn't be satisfied with the just the floorboard light. Although it is the primary indicator but what are you going to do when the bulb burns out, since there is no way for you to press to test, you won't be able to know if its just a bulb or the gear isn't fully down to the down limit switch? With an annunciator (press to test) you know the difference right away.

Edited September 29, 2019 by kortopates

[Emmet]

Technically the G3X could cover all of the annunciations with ease. 

How is a annunciator defined as primary?

[hais]

On 9/29/2019 at 1:44 PM, Emmet said:

Technically the G3X could cover all of the annunciations with ease. 

How is a annunciator defined as primary?

What did you end up doing @Emmet? Did you replace the annunciator? If so, what did you do with alternate air? 

I've gone through the G3X manual and saw there's a gear annunciator there, so I'd think only the alternate air would need a dedicated light.

[PT20J]

19 hours ago, hais said:

What did you end up doing @Emmet? Did you replace the annunciator? If so, what did you do with alternate air? 

I've gone through the G3X manual and saw there's a gear annunciator there, so I'd think only the alternate air would need a dedicated light.

I believe the G3X landing gear position indication is only available in the experimental version.

[201Mooniac]

So I'm kinda curios about this as I'm going to have a GI-275 EIS installed.  My installer sent me the following from the GI-275 installation guide limitations section:

Annunciator lights, including alternator/generator annunciators operated by a sensor or switch
independent of the existing gauge, must remain operative and independent from the GI 275 EIS. If
an annunciator is operated by a gauge that might be replaced by the GI 275 EIS, the associated
annunciator can be deactivated only if the GI 275 Caution/Warning alert activates for the same
condition as the original annunciator. The GI 275 Caution/Warning alert is provided on the display
or an independent annunciator. However, if the new GI 275 EIS gauge does not support a Caution/
Warning alert for the same condition, the existing gauge and annunciator must remain installed.

I guess I'll need to check how the other annunciations are connected but he thinks the annunciator panel will have to stay.  If I could just add a Gear Down and Gear Unsafe annunciation, I'd prefer that to keeping the entire annunciator panel.

[PT20J]

I just left the annunciator panel in when I installed my G3X Touch with EIS. It was simpler than adding lights for GEAR DOWN, GEAR UNSAFE, SPEED BRAKE, PITOT HEAT, BOOST PUMP and START POWER, and also having to install a relay or switch for GEAR DOWN light dimming.

Skip

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

I just left the annunciator panel in when I installed my G3X Touch with EIS. It was simpler than adding lights for GEAR DOWN, GEAR UNSAFE, SPEED BRAKE, PITOT HEAT, BOOST PUMP and START POWER, and also having to install a relay or switch for GEAR DOWN light dimming.

Skip

??  You have lights for speedbrake, pitot heat and boost pump?

[PT20J]

57 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

??  You have lights for speedbrake, pitot heat and boost pump?

[jaylw314]

49 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Whoa, I didn't realize they changed the annunciator panel in J's at some point

[Niko182]

For everyone wondering, for at least the S model Mooney, which means realistically for the M, S, R, and TN at least, you need 2 indicators of the landing gear. If you only have the floorboard, I believe you are not legal for flight. When I did the G3X, I removed the annunciator panel, and added 5 lights. Speed Brakes, Alternate Air, Boost pump, Gear down, and up. The voltage and fuel annunciations can be displayed on the G3X.

[ArtVandelay]

Since I removed engine gauges (replaced by JPI) and vacuum…. I was only left with landing gear, my speed brakes switch has it’s own light.

[Marc_B]

Trying to find out details on the annunciator panel to fit in a radio stack with GMC507, GTN750Xi, GTN650Xi, and annunciator. My double row annunciator won’t fit. So wondering if I could replace with single row and if I could customize the indications to fit what I need? LASAR sells an annunciator without legend and not sure if this could be customized? 

Gear down, gear unsafe, starter, alt air, boost pump, pitot heat, prop heat, speed brake…8 indications which is single row.

Other question is in my kinds of equipment list it has 2 fuel indications as well as 2 gear indications. Regarding fuel: Wondering if this is 2 meaning left and right, vs 2 meaning two indications for the left and two for the right?

I have a MVP50 that has flags and indications for all the other existing annunciator lights.  

[kortopates]

Just move the annunciator further to the right as shown on mine above with the same stack. I probably could have moved mine back to the center with last panel update but just kept it over to the right.

Two fuel indications are for left and right fuel tanks, but with my CIES fuel senders and EDM-900 taking over fuel, that portion of the annunciator is no longer functional.

Two gear annunciations are floorboard and annunciator.

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[carusoam]

Annunciators are a tough one…

They are spelled out with such detail…

Replacing one with something different is challenging…

The situation has come up before… because there are some nice digital updates physically available…

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[Marc_B]

So it's interesting to see the differences in the upper horizontal panel support even between M20K's.  The 252 has a flat bracket that seems to have a little more clearance, plus has a single row annunciator panel.  The M20K Encore has a more rigid tube bracket that takes up an extra 0.25" or so, not to mention a 2 row annunciator.

M20K 252:

M20K Encore:

M20K Encore Original Annunciator:

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Interesting panel challenge Marc!

Hope this solution works the first time!  

There will probably be more people interested in it for the same reason…

Best rgeards,

-a-

[bradp]

77J has like volts, gear, gear unsafe and ram air.  That’s it.