Request Insight into Upgrade Path and Value

[RogueOne]

We have a 700 legacy engine monitor.  No interest in upgrading to 900 series.  Question is: The 730 with trade-in is about 1200 with simple install.  What is lost in doing this for a bigger more readable gauge vs. an 830?  It appears you can do individual “upgrades” on the 730?

Other question: What is real value of a strikefinder with ADSB weather?  It is taking up panel space and I just don’t see the value?  What am I missing?

Another question: If I upgrade engine monitor and move to strike-finder location what would you put in the opening on far left of panel?

[ArtVandelay]

Do you fly IFR when TS are around? SF is real time, ADSB nexrad can be as much as 15 minutes old. I removed mine, got 9.7 lbs back.

 

You can remove the Shadin FF and put the 730/830 there. Pull the old 700, leave it blank, install a USB port, remove compass and install a panel mount compass, etc.

 

I’d fixed the glare shield, it seems to be installed incorrectly or warped for some reason.

 

 

Tom

 

 

[Danb]

I’ve got XM, ADSB and WX500, stormscope, last year during the storm season ,summertime in the northeast, I compared and contrasted the three units with differing results. Obviously I like XM over the ADSB the contrast is much better ,the XM and ADSB were 10-20 minutes old and comparing to the real-time  stormscope was remarkable. I compared real-time pictures when navigating around the storms. On more than a couple occasions the weather systems would have had me in or to close to some monsters, one being on my way to the summit last year. The scope was balls on accurate. I use the XM and ADSB for generalized flying and the scope for navigating around the storms. I felt the difference was remarkable 

[jlunseth]

I know you said you had no interest, but if you install the 930 or the EI equivalent (don’t recall the model) you would get to remove all the strip gauges at the top, the fuel flow, the MP gauge way over on the right (how do you use it over there?), the volts and the amps and the fuel gauge.  The only thing the 930 would not replace is vacuum, but the equivalent EI includes vacuum.  You could put the 930 where the standby AI and the second CDI currently are. Then move the AP annunciator over where it is in your scan in IME (left side of where the strip gauges go).  I will bet the second AI and the strikefinder could go above the six pack, to the right of the AP annunciator.  That puts everything including the engine gauges in your scan, which will save your bacon someday when something starts happening in the engine, you will see it immediately.  Way better IMC set up. The only decision then is what to do with the holes on the right and on the console. An added benefit is that the 930 can be built to work with CiES tank sensors and the EI has its own digital tank sensors.  Way better measure of fuel than the factory senders.  

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

I’ve got XM, ADSB and WX500, stormscope, last year during the storm season ,summertime in the northeast, I compared and contrasted the three units with differing results. Obviously I like XM over the ADSB the contrast is much better ,the XM and ADSB were 10-20 minutes old and comparing to the real-time  stormscope was remarkable. I compared real-time pictures when navigating around the storms. On more than a couple occasions the weather systems would have had me in or to close to some monsters, one being on my way to the summit last year. The scope was balls on accurate. I use the XM and ADSB for generalized flying and the scope for navigating around the storms. I felt the difference was remarkable 

We also use the three listed above and each source has its advantages. XM for greater detail and LR planning, wx500 for in close, and adsb for everything in between. 
 

For upgrading buy the cheapest 4 cylinder jpi 730 (if purchased during rebates it saves 2-300). This gives you sensors to sell with your used 700 if it’s still working.  I would also source a fuel totalizer (not sure if you can piggyback off the other one) and an oil pressure sensor. The FF will be beneficial for leaning purposes and the oil sensor is nice for trend monitoring.  The displays are all the same between the 730 and 830 so you can add other sensors in the future if you want. 

[jetdriven]

And Oshkosh the show special for the JPI830 was $1989. And sell your 700 for 500$ to get some of that money back

[RogueOne]

5 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Do you fly IFR when TS are around? SF is real time, ADSB nexrad can be as much as 15 minutes old. I removed mine, got 9.7 lbs back.

 

You can remove the Shadin FF and put the 730/830 there. Pull the old 700, leave it blank, install a USB port, remove compass and install a panel mount compass, etc.

 

I’d fixed the glare shield, it seems to be installed incorrectly or warped for some reason.

 

 

Tom

 

 

No.  Thanks for the suggestions.  Good stuff there.  Ya, the glare screen is WAY down the list.  Doesn’t bother me a bit.

[RogueOne]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I know you said you had no interest, but if you install the 930 or the EI equivalent (don’t recall the model) you would get to remove all the strip gauges at the top, the fuel flow, the MP gauge way over on the right (how do you use it over there?), the volts and the amps and the fuel gauge.  The only thing the 930 would not replace is vacuum, but the equivalent EI includes vacuum.  You could put the 930 where the standby AI and the second CDI currently are. Then move the AP annunciator over where it is in your scan in IME (left side of where the strip gauges go).  I will bet the second AI and the strikefinder could go above the six pack, to the right of the AP annunciator.  That puts everything including the engine gauges in your scan, which will save your bacon someday when something starts happening in the engine, you will see it immediately.  Way better IMC set up. The only decision then is what to do with the holes on the right and on the console. An added benefit is that the 930 can be built to work with CiES tank sensors and the EI has its own digital tank sensors.  Way better measure of fuel than the factory senders.  

Thanks for input, but a 930 is not happening.

[RogueOne]

3 hours ago, MIm20c said:

We also use the three listed above and each source has its advantages. XM for greater detail and LR planning, wx500 for in close, and adsb for everything in between. 
 

For upgrading buy the cheapest 4 cylinder jpi 730 (if purchased during rebates it saves 2-300). This gives you sensors to sell with your used 700 if it’s still working.  I would also source a fuel totalizer (not sure if you can piggyback off the other one) and an oil pressure sensor. The FF will be beneficial for leaning purposes and the oil sensor is nice for trend monitoring.  The displays are all the same between the 730 and 830 so you can add other sensors in the future if you want. 

I like the MP and RPM presentation of the 830.  The 730 does not show that top presentation, but has rpm and MP with other extras listed in a text type non-graphic style.  NOT a fan of that.  Not a bad idea on buying the four cylinder cheapest, but we can get a trade in on the 700 vs. selling with the probes.  Our 700 has oil pressure and the 730 comes with this included.  Would be great if Shadin fuel info was compatible with the JPI.  Doubting it is...

I will get more info on the screens/differences and a la cart probe purchases vs. getting with the unit.

From all the info it sounds like the strike finder DOES indeed have “real time” value so the totalizer will likely go.  USB power port in the old 700 position is a really good idea I had not thought about.  Nice to charge a pad or a phone on a longer trip.

[MIm20c]

I like your thought process and agree with the replacement plan. I think the cost delta between the screen upgrade and the cheapest 4 cyl 730 is around $250. For the extra money you get to keep the display (core $300) and you get 4 new egt/cht probes.  Without a doubt I would source a couple more egt probes and replace them all. Might as well put on the 4 new cht units as well. If you sell your old parts it will be a break even vs the upgrade path. 

The screens are the same. If you add MAP and RPM sensors to the 730 the display changes over to the 830 layout (I’m 95% sure of this). We have around 2k hrs behind a 700 unit, 300 hrs on an 830, and 300 hrs on a 900 primary. The _30 upgrade is well worth it, the primary might be if the factory gauges are failing otherwise I have mixed feelings about it. 

You might not be able to replace the shadin unit with the JPI unit depending on how the rocket conversion was certified and what instruments are required. 
 

[bradp]

Yes - your existing harness and probes are compatible with the 730 face.  Just the display head is different.  If I recall correctly the 730 uses a shadin fuel flow format to output info to the navigator. Makes me wonder if a shadin is in fact compatible with the 730   

If you want a bunch of probes information (more than EGT and CHT) or if you want FF info on that device, the upgrade to the lcd screen on the 730/830 is worth it. Otherwise your 700 shows you the information that you need   

If you do any type of summer flying, the strikefinder is worth it’s weight in gold ... still.  Flying yesterday there was a sigmet for embedded TS just to the east of delmar peninsula... by the time I got that way there were in fact layers supportive of the previous embedded weather call but everything was dissipating.  Far enough out I could kind of see over the tops of the layers that the tops were not that tall. XM weather showed nothing - on ADSB radar returns had been dissipating or steady indicating post convective debris.  Importantly strike finder was totally clear.  About 150 nm to the west strike finder started blipping and then ADSB/Xm started painting cells.  Interesting that the cloud to ground lightning on ADSB was pretty quick.  

[RogueOne]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

Yes - your existing harness and probes are compatible with the 730 face.  Just the display head is different.  If I recall correctly the 730 uses a shadin fuel flow format to output info to the navigator. Makes me wonder if a shadin is in fact compatible with the 730   

If you want a bunch of probes information (more than EGT and CHT) or if you want FF info on that device, the upgrade to the lcd screen on the 730/830 is worth it. Otherwise your 700 shows you the information that you need   

If you do any type of summer flying, the strikefinder is worth it’s weight in gold ... still.  Flying yesterday there was a sigmet for embedded TS just to the east of delmar peninsula... by the time I got that way there were in fact layers supportive of the previous embedded weather call but everything was dissipating.  Far enough out I could kind of see over the tops of the layers that the tops were not that tall. XM weather showed nothing - on ADSB radar returns had been dissipating or steady indicating post convective debris.  Importantly strike finder was totally clear.  About 150 nm to the west strike finder started blipping and then ADSB/Xm started painting cells.  Interesting that the cloud to ground lightning on ADSB was pretty quick.  

Thanks Brad AND MLM20C.  So I am definitely WANTING the 830 as I want MP/RPM/HP AND fuel flow.  Maybe I will just do 830 upgrade and “try” to see if the Shadin will integrate with the 830?  My thought is to move the strike finder up where the Shadin is and install the 830 in a vertical presentation where the strikefinder is now.  There is some needed space (as there are no rocker/breaker switch’s below) that I think the 830 will need.  I think the not panel flush would be getting to close to the gear down switch if I popped into existing Shadin spot.  I have never used a Strike Finder BUT have used ADSB and before that XM weather for in flight ADM.  I do not plan to use XM in the plane.

If anyone else has combined the Shadin probes successfully with an EDM 830 regarding fuel totalizer I would love to just do upgrade (head) on 830.  10/1 there is a $300 rebate on 8/30 and I could just sell the 700 on Ebay and have all the probes including fuel flow.

Decisions, decisions...

Truth be told I love my G3, but placement is similar (in our E) to the Missile 700 position.  The screen size is just to small and I would value the size/color of the 830 over the smaller 700....

[LANCECASPER]

18 hours ago, RogueOne said:

Thanks for input, but a 930 is not happening.

Many have felt that way.

However when your factory gauges starting going out one by one on you, and they will eventually, and there is no path to repairing them and the airplane can't be operated without them you may think differently about a 900 or 930. It also may dawn on you then how inexpensive that the incremental cost would have been when you did the 830 to just have gone with the 900 or 930.

[bradp]

Lance has a point - the number of probes and extra labor is not incrementally that much more than an 830.  You should consider digital senders but not required orncoild be added later.  

[Austintatious]

I am in a similar position WRT engine monitoring.  Have a Gem 603 that has issues (old/bad probes)... I dont know what to do... An EDM 900 would be great, but the install cost is insane.   Sarasota avionics gave me an "F YOU!" quote of 12k installed.... that's about 7k for installation alone.  At 100 an hour that would be 70 hours of install?  are they kidding?

I have been looking at the Upgrade option through insight.  I can upgrade from the 603 to a G3 and throw on new probes for about 4k.  This would be of limited use however.

THe other option is to just buy all new probes for the 603 and live with that ancient tech.

I don't know what to do.  I am trying to get more quotes for the EDM 900 to see if I cant get it installed for closer to 7500.00

 

On the SF.... I think it is highly valuable.  They keep you out of the real crap!

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, Austintatious said:

I am in a similar position WRT engine monitoring.  Have a Gem 603 that has issues (old/bad probes)... I dont know what to do... An EDM 900 would be great, but the install cost is insane.   Sarasota avionics gave me an "F YOU!" quote of 12k installed.... that's about 7k for installation alone.  At 100 an hour that would be 70 hours of install?  are they kidding?

I have been looking at the Upgrade option through insight.  I can upgrade from the 603 to a G3 and throw on new probes for about 4k.  This would be of limited use however.

THe other option is to just buy all new probes for the 603 and live with that ancient tech.

I don't know what to do.  I am trying to get more quotes for the EDM 900 to see if I cant get it installed for closer to 7500.00

 

On the SF.... I think it is highly valuable.  They keep you out of the real crap!

Check with @Jeev for a quote. 

[Oldguy]

20 hours ago, RogueOne said:

install the 830 in a vertical presentation where the strikefinder is now.  There is some needed space (as there are no rocker/breaker switch’s below) that I think the 830 will need.

Yes, it will need a bit of space below it. If there are no rockers there, it works nicely, but will not flush mount.

 

[Austintatious]

On 9/29/2019 at 9:48 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Check with @Jeev for a quote. 

I have contacted him and am waiting for a quote. 

I did however just receive a quote from an avionics shop at KFTW.   They want 24,900.00  to remove old instruments and put in an EDM 900.... 24,900.00 USD... is that even close to reasonable?!?!

[ArtVandelay]

I have contacted him and am waiting for a quote. 
I did however just receive a quote from an avionics shop at KFTW.   They want 24,900.00  to remove old instruments and put in an EDM 900.... 24,900.00 USD... is that even close to reasonable?!?!

No


Tom

[bradp]

That quote is code for “we have a citation lined up for something. If you want to pay more for your engine monitor than the citation would you can grovel for our business”. 

Unit cost plus about 40+/- hrs labor seems to be what’s out there. 

[ArtVandelay]

I would not talk to an avionics person till summer of 2020.


Tom

[Airways]

16 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I would not talk to an avionics person till summer of 2020.


Tom

Due to ADS-B or some cool stuff in the pipeline ?

[DXB]

12 hours ago, Austintatious said:

I have contacted him and am waiting for a quote. 

I did however just receive a quote from an avionics shop at KFTW.   They want 24,900.00  to remove old instruments and put in an EDM 900.... 24,900.00 USD... is that even close to reasonable?!?!

That sounds laughably unreasonable to me.  Four years ago I was charged $6000 as the installed price for one. It was part of a complete panel redo, so some increased labor to do in isolation is reasonable.  Factor in inflation and the huge amount of business clogging avionics shops presently and maybe 10,000 might be reasonable on the very high end?  The quote you got merely indicates they have more profitable jobs to be doing and don't want your business.

[ArtVandelay]

Due to ADS-B or some cool stuff in the pipeline ?

Too busy, most ADSB plus recent cool stuff probably resulting in “while I’m at it” syndrome.


Tom

[RogueOne]

For those that have...Is it POSSIBLE to fit a 900 in the space available with removal of strike finder and fuel totalizer?