M20C Gear Collapse - Need Parts/ Help

[Stackthepilot]

It was a beautiful Sunday, 2 weeks before Oshkosh.  I was practicing precision landings.  On landing number 5 something felt different.  On my post landing roll out I felt a wobble.  It worsened and finally collapsed.  Luckilly I was at idle and slowing down.  However the prop struck the pavement 12 times (six per blade) and I suffered light skin damage.

This 1964 Mooney is the one in the photo.  It is beautiful and with only 460hrs on the engine which performs flawlessly, I do not want to total her as the insurance company suggests.  However they offered me a buy back but I am having trouble locating parts.  I need the following parts, for starters.

Prop - HC-C2YK-1B.  That is what I am having the most problem with.  Belly Skins.  From the Nose Gear Doors to just before the ADF pod.

Obviously I need the engine to have a TDI.  That's easy, not cheap but plenty of people willing to do it.

If anyone can help locate or if you have these parts, I would be most appreciative.

John Stackhouse, N1989Y

[Alan Fox]

The scout aircraft have the correct prop , but the blades are 7666  and the mooney blades are 7666-2 , You have to send them to a prop shop and have the diameter reduced by 1 inch each blade , this costs about 500 at the prop shop , A popular mod for the scout is a mt prop conversion.....  Check the scout clubs and message boards and you will find a prop .... Good luck.....

[Stackthepilot]

What great advice.  I knew I would find good info here!!

[fantom]

Were you doing touch and go's?

[Immelman]

Do you have insurance? This seems like a good time to upgrade to the hartzell top prop.

[Stackthepilot]

Yes I was doing touch and go's.  I was preparing for Oshkosh and doing precision landings.  This was # 4 or 5 and (not bragging at all) I put the mains down exactly where I chose.  Luckilly I was at idle when this happened and had already rolled 150ft or so.

I am looking at the Hartzell 3 blade.  Availability seems limited.  I have found a 2 blade with 90 hours for $4200 though.

[richardheitzman]

Parts can be found via any Mooney service center for your aircraft. LASAR, MAXWELL, DUGOSH all have a good stock of vintage aircraft parts and any one of those can do the TDI. I find it interesting that the insurance company wants to total your aircraft for what amounts to a prop strike and minor skin damage. You might have your aircraft underinsured.

[Stackthepilot]

I have it insured for $40K.  I owe the bank $18K but the estimate came in at $37K.  Basically the Insurance Company (Chartis Aerospace) which I highly recommend is going to give me a check for $40K.  In the end, I believe it will work out because I can buy the aircraft back for @ $10K, find rebuilt parts and used skins, pay off the bank and end up owning it free and clear. 

I just need help fiinding the parts because the more I look through Google and other search engines the more frustrated I become.

[fantom]

Good lesson for all of us to fly and especially LAND safely.  "Precision" spot T&G landings concern me because there's usually a tendancy to force it onto the point, and there is lots going on with the immediate takeoff in front of you.

Parts are getting tougher to find, are becoming even more expensive, and it ain't gonna get better, so FLY SAFE OUT THERE!

 

[KSMooniac]

Don't go with the metal 3-blade prop... bad choice on a 4-cyl Lycoming and you especially don't need the extra weight on the nose.  LASAR can probably cover you for the replacement parts and maybe it will make sense to upgrade the belly to a 1-piece unit instead of the original panels from a cost standpoint, and you'll gain much better access for maintenance.

Check barnstormers.com for props too...they always seem to have quite a few listed.  There is always trade-a-plane too.

Don't forget to have a Mooney-savvy mechanic go through the entire gear system as something wasn't right for it to collapse.  The collapse likely damaged some of the components, too, so you'll probably need some of those parts as well.

Good on ya for trying to keep her flying!  We don't need to send any more Mooneys to the boneyard!

[fantom]

Great advise from Scott.

Now is not the time to go too cheap, John, if you want a good plane in the future

[Hank]

Good luck in your endeavor, John. My C-model has a smooth 3-blade Hartzell; must be a fuel-injector issue, as the only ones who complain either have injectors, or don't have a 3-blade. Kind of like C, B & P drivers who say that Mooneys are too small . . .

Do get the one-piece belly, even if you don't get the expensive new carbon-fiber one that Bill Wheat is marketing. And have someone who knows Mooneys check your gear rigging, preload and bearings before you taxi out the next time.

[Alan Fox]

You can get away with a prop strike inspection if the crank dials out , which is just pulling the accesory case and dye checking the crank gear , replacing the bolt and lock plate .... About 100 dollars in parts , and it can be done in the mount , the engine does not have to come out , This is ironed out in the Lycoming non recurring  ad on prop strikes... The one piece belly is a waste of money IMHO You can pull the lower skins in 25 minutes , and the belly does not increase your speed , but the three blade prop will cost a few precious knots...4200 is a great price for the prop if it has the newer hub... Good luck...Also I dont think Chartiss will sell it back for 10 K, I would get it in writing before you start buying parts...

[Stackthepilot]

After recovering from the initial estimate of $37K we have taken another direction.  The insurance company offered to sell her to me for $10,993.  I accepted and within the last 5 minutes received this e-mail from Chartis:

"Thanks John.  There actually won’t be a signature required.  The check will leave our NJ office tomorrow and should arrive within a few business days.  If for some reason you don’t get it, let me know.  Thanks again, and we will proceed forward with closing your claim at this time."

 

I did change my mind on the prop.  Russell at Memphis Propeller said he would build a Zero time prop for $5K.  It is the old hub as he said the new No AD hubs are literally worth their weight in gold.  I told him I love Memphis BBQ and would gladly fly down every 100 hours where for $199 he will inspect it on the aircraft. 

 

As for the belly, if it really won't increase my speed, it is pretty much worthless to me.  I pull my own skins for the Annuals anyway.  I have a great DeWalt that does the job in about 10 minutes.  My A&P who is working on this with me said he can repair or rebuild the skins for next to nothing.

 

We are going to go ahead and remove the engine in the morning.  My A&P agreed we could do it in frame but he felt more comfortable removing and sending the crank and case off just to be safe.  I have 3 children that fly with me often so I could not fauld the move of caution.

 

I appreciate your advice.

[jetdriven]

A dialed flange can check for a bent flange but cannot detect stress cracks anywhere on the crank.  Good call splitting the case and sending the cranks and case off. You'll likely find a couple spalled lifters and a bad cam.  Replace these with new parts.  

 

You can manufacture the middle belly skins pretty easily.  They are just flat metal with holes for the screws.

I dont think a zero time prop with an AD hub is worth much at all.  Might want to reconsider having the hub zyglo'd every 100 hours that is a pain.  I didnt think even a shop would assemble a Hartzell with an AD hub. I think he is unloading free parts on you for 5k. 8K gets a new 3-blade.

[triple8s]

I have heard lots of talk, yes the case has to be opened, no it doesnt ,yada yada yada. As for me, my A_ _ is worth more than a few grand. I'll have the cases split AND get a brand new prop. I'd rather know it is right. Cutting corners with critical rotating mass components is a bit different than a non approved light bulb or a set of automotive seat covers. If that prop slings a blade because of a bad hub or a harmonic vib in the crank the whole engine is gonna depart the aircraft faster than you can get your hand on the throttle. What would that do to the W&B? No I think I will be the chicken and spend a little and be sure. (Actually I would probably go with an IO-360 instead of the O-360) I think. Watch this and maybe you'll have a change of heart.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=433bkE3Mlw8&feature=related 

[testwest]

Check my ads in the for sale section for a marker beacon antenna and and ADF antenna if you need them.

[tony]

We have beat this topic dead in another thread, however for John's benefit what is required is to comply with this AD:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/4b846c8b3d5675ba8625726d006e3668/9fa5e5f8683a0a4686256e9b004bc295/$FILE/041014.pdf

which states:

“That AD currently requires inspection of the crankshaft gear installation and rework or replacement of the gears where necessary after a propeller strike, sudden stoppage, at overhaul, or whenever gear train repair is required. This AD requires the same actions but makes the correction that the existing gear retaining bolt and lockplate be removed from service and new hardware installed”

Therefore, what’s required is an inspection of the gears in the accessory case and replacement of the bolt that holds the gear on the crank. Based on the inspection the A&P will determine if diving into the rest of the engine is necessary. To arbitrarily determine that the engine has to be taken apart without any data might mitigate the risk of a catastrophic failure but it’s an emotional decision at this point.

Ok, I’m ready to be yelled at…..

[Cris]

Quote: Stackthepilot

I did change my mind on the prop.  Russell at Memphis Propeller said he would build a Zero time prop for $5K.  It is the old hub as he said the new No AD hubs are literally worth their weight in gold.  I told him I love Memphis BBQ and would gladly fly down every 100 hours where for $199 he will inspect it on the aircraft. 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Surely the Hartzell 2 blade Top-Prop can be installed for what...$8000 new?

As Scott said, thanks for keeping your bird flying!

[DaV8or]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Surely the Hartzell 2 blade Top-Prop can be installed for what...$8000 new?

As Scott said, thanks for keeping your bird flying!

[testwest]

+1 for the Hartzell 2-blade Top Prop (with the blended airfoil (BA) blades). We sure like ours! 

[Alan Fox]

The top prop is closer to 11k and you cant get it right away , Find a scout that had a MT conversion , Call MT prop , Im sure they have the correct prop... And yes yes tony you sre correct about the inspection ...  If the crank dials out the engine is OK .. The people at lycoming are not stupid , And as for any of the (experts) I will take Lycomings opinion over thiers..... 

[testwest]

The 2-blade (not three blade) Top Prop for the M20C is $8,500. See the following web site http://www.hartzellprop.com/top_prop_details.php?id=104

Mike Trudeau is the contact there at Hartzell. He'll have the real info on availability. If it were my M20C, I would definitely go this route.....but, it's just advice  and provided in the spirit of helpfulness. Good luck with the repair, and thanks for keeping it flying.

[jetdriven]

Norman, how much did that Top Prop give you as far as cruise speed and climb?

Quote: testwest

+1 for the Hartzell 2-blade Top Prop (with the blended airfoil (BA) blades). We sure like ours!