Mooney crash in Australia

[kmyfm20s]

Unfortunately 2 dead.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/missing-nsw-plane-found-crashed-in-forest/4aec56a4-215c-4cea-844c-05a9eb3659bd

Edited September 21, 2019 by kmyfm20s

[ArtVandelay]

I wonder if it was this one:
https://mooneyspace.com/topic/23617-1981-201-australia-nsw-sold/

Can’t be that many Js in NSW.


Tom

[flyboy0681]

Even though they were located many thousands of miles away in Oz, they were still brothers.

Interesting how the animation graphic of the flight path contains the profile of a Mooney.

[carusoam]

Inviting mike to stop by...

@mike_elliott

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I would have flown down the coast, I’m sure there are more hospitable landing areas, like the beach.


Tom

[mike_elliott]

I have reached out to my friends in Australia to see if we can assist a surviving spouse. So sad. I did not fly in this J last Nov. when I was there for the AMPA Pilot safety program. Most of the 120 or so registered Mooneys in Australia are J's.

[mike_elliott]

Father and Son from QLD...

 

Jeff and Matthew Hills from the Gold Coast (QLD). http://www.mygc.com.au/gold-coast-father-son-killed-in-nsw-light-plane-crash/

RIP Jeff, Matthew..so sad. User fees may be a "contributing factor" in this one...

[kortopates]

Father and Son from QLD...
 
Jeff and Matthew Hills from the Gold Coast (QLD). http://www.mygc.com.au/gold-coast-father-son-killed-in-nsw-light-plane-crash/
RIP Jeff, Matthew..so sad. User fees may be a "contributing factor" in this one...

Very sad to see a father and son perish like that; especially in his new Mooney. Interesting twist on the user fees. Can you expand on how?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mooney in Oz]

22 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I wonder if it was this one:
https://mooneyspace.com/topic/23617-1981-201-australia-nsw-sold/

Can’t be that many Js in NSW.


Tom

Probably not Tom.  

The accident aircraft was purchased a few months ago from the previous owner in Western Australia who was the registration holder/operator for the past 10 years.

19 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

CFIT / scud running?  Such a shame and a tragic loss for that family.

You are probably right.

ADSB tracking was suddenly lost at 3,200 feet in an area where the grid lower safe altitude is 6,600 feet in poor weather conditions.

15 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

I have reached out to my friends in Australia to see if we can assist a surviving spouse. So sad. I did not fly in this J last Nov. when I was there for the AMPA Pilot safety program. Most of the 120 or so registered Mooneys in Australia are J's.

I don't think that Mr Hill was an AMPA member Mike.

That is so kind of you to offer.

9 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

RIP Jeff, Matthew..so sad. User fees may be a "contributing factor" in this one...

 

7 hours ago, kortopates said:

Very sad to see a father and son perish like that; especially in his new Mooney. Interesting twist on the user fees. Can you expand on how?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Assuming he was not instrument rated, probably unlikely in this case Mike unless he wanted to avoid a landing fee at the destination. Aeronautical user fees are generally not levied toward private VFR flights, although landing or parking fees are, which are administered by the local council authority.

Even some private IFR flights are aeronautical fee exempt provided the aircraft is below a certain weight, which covers all Mooneys and does not rack up more than $500 worth of fees in 12 months.  Under this amount the fee is waived.

This is all the result of privatisation.  Fight it tooth and nail while you can. (A conversation for another day).

 

 

[Mooney in Oz]

See the below track depiction from Flight Radar 24.  The sudden stop is sobering.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-dju#222accba

[mike_elliott]

I thought he would encounter a fee if entering Coff harbor airspace for a clearance, but glad to hear that 'safety measure' hasn't been introduced by Casa to unless you use the system more than $500 AUD worth.  East of Coff's is ocean.

Here is another article.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-22/plane-crash-victims-named-as-jeff-and-matt-hills-gold-coast/11536542

The Mooney Summit's Bill Gilliland foundation is not limited in it's reach just to US pilots for assistance. We have reached out to our European and Canadian brothers families already, and will to Mrs. Hill when we can learn how to reach her.

 

[PTK]

10 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

User fees may be a "contributing factor" in this one...

I don’t see how user fees, any user fees, cause a pilot to decide to be at 3000 when minimum is 6200 and in IMC. I just don’t see it. 

This is just horrific. RIP.  

[mike_elliott]

52 minutes ago, PTK said:

I don’t see how user fees, any user fees, cause a pilot to decide to be at 3000 when minimum is 6200 and in IMC. I just don’t see it. 

This is just horrific. RIP.  

It would have been hard to hit a hill at 3000 over the ocean. Getting there I believed would have invoked a user fee flying thru Coff Harbor airspace, but Victor corrected me that it doesnt come into play until you accumulate $500 worth of fees in our Mooneys. I have a Australian Pilot license also, but not knowing this, also puts me ignorant, albeit I could see how it would affect ADM.

I agree with you it is just horrific.

Thanks Victor for your kind donation. 

[Mooney in Oz]

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

glad to hear that 'safety measure' hasn't been introduced by Casa to unless you use the system more than $500 AUD worth.  East of Coff's is ocean.

CASA aren't responsible for aeronautical charges since a restructure years ago when a new corporate government entity was created named AirServices Australia (ASA) that has since taken over the administration of aeronautical charges and matters such as airspace design and ATC.  At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether it is CASA or AirServices doing the fee gouging as the Australian Government reaps it all.

Jeff and his son departed a small grass airfield from a town called Murwillumbah, which is about 18 nm from Coolangatta (Gold Coast) airport and where I assume the Mooney lived as costs at Coolangatta are exorbitant.

Coffs Harbour is surrounded by Class D airspace and tower controlled.  It has Class C above that is controlled by ATC at Brisbane Centre.  

Rumour has it that he was denied clearance to enter Class C and told to contact Coffs tower to transit the Class D zone.  If all that is true, perhaps he decided to track inland to avoid the airspace altogether.  Also if true, it would all have been recorded.

[Mooney in Oz]

9 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Thats so sad.  Many a time when younger i was told negative to entry to class X airspace amd as such increased my workload and stress levels while I rerouted, now I just tell them rather than ask them.  It took a LOT of hours to,learn that technique.  ATC cannot (well in easa) refuse you entry except for safety reasons, so if you say negative to their negative, then you can drive through and they have to let you.  .  

I wish that rule existed here Andrew.  

If you are a private pilot, a clearance into Class D airspace appears to be commonly denied if a transport category turboprop or jet aircraft are about to enter the airspace and unless you declare a 'Pan' call (one level below a Mayday emergency) with an operational reason then it is denied. The weird thing is, if two turboprops or jets are entering the airspace at similar times they are both allowed using normal separation standards.  Maybe it's not ATC ineptitude, instead it's maybe the idiotic rules they have to work under.

The Department of Stupidity runs everything over here.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Mooney in Oz
Removed reference to a Pan call being unique to Australia.

[mike_elliott]

At times, they do make the FAA look like a well oiled machine....

[gsxrpilot]

I tried for a few years to get an Australian pilots license. But in then end, just couldn't navigate the medical requirements. I have no problem with holding a medical here in the US, but the CASA system where a Doc in Canberra makes the decision to grant or not, and the local Doc (AME) has no decision making power and is only there to fill out the paperwork and send it to CASA, and there wasn't any way for one to talk to the Doc at CASA, and no appeal... 

After about 3 years of trying, I gave up. I agree, CASA does make the FAA look good.

[ArtVandelay]

In US our class Ds typically have a ceiling of 2500’ AGL, class Cs 4000’, pretty easy to simply climb over it. Is Australia different?


Tom

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

.....about to enter the airspace and unless you declare a 'Pan' call (a unique Australian call to ATC that is one level below a Mayday emergency) with an operational reason then it is denied......

See the FAA AIM 6.3.1 c for a description of the use of Pan Pan call.  It is ICAO phraseology & may be used worldwide.  

Nevertheless I suggest  one never bother with Pan Pan or a generic request for priority if you’re in distress.  Declare “Emergency” and tell ATC what you are going to do. 

[Mooney in Oz]

Just now, Jerry 5TJ said:

See the FAA AIM 6.3.1 c for a description of the use of Pan Pan call.  It is ICAO phraseology & may be used worldwide.  

Nevertheless I suggest  one never bother with Pan Pan or a generic request for priority if you’re in distress.  Declare “Emergency” and tell ATC what you are going to do. 

I stand corrected Jerry as I mistakenly thought it was unique to us over here.  Thank you.

ATC here will generally not respond to priority unless either of the two terms are used.

[Mooney in Oz]

47 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

In US our class Ds typically have a ceiling of 2500’ AGL, class Cs 4000’, pretty easy to simply climb over it. Is Australia different?


Tom

Class D varies but generally to 3500' and up to 25 miles whereas some Class C lower limits can go high into the flight levels.

[PTK]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

So user fees DO have an impact on pilots thinking

So avoiding user fees is more of a priority in the pilot’s mind than dealing with the emx? Like I said I just don’t see it! Maybe it's just me but user fees wouldn’t enter my mind. Be that what it may, what do user fees have to do with being in IMC at 3000 and hitting rocks when should be 6200 or above?

[kortopates]

49 minutes ago, PTK said:

So avoiding user fees is more of a priority in the pilot’s mind than dealing with the emx? Like I said I just don’t see it! Maybe it's just me but user fees wouldn’t enter my mind.

I agree Peter, but I think the issue here is that there are levels of degree "emergencies" or reasons for diverting. My most expensive "user fee" diversion landing was diverting from Havana Cuba to Varadero Cuba. Havana was closed due to a thunderstorm over it with visibility below minimums.  With lots of planes already holding out at an IAF for the ILS, the controller actually suggested we should hold over the airport where it was solid red on the nexrad. We were already trying to hold, but not very successfully, in severe turbulence and had our fill. No way were we going to take a clearance to fly into the worst part of the weather. So we diverted away from the weather to Varadero and paid either $328 or $428 for the privilege of waiting out the weather for a bit over an hour before resuming back to Havana in VFR conditions. At the time the expensive Cuban landing fees didn't even enter into my mind as it would be sure idiocy to not divert in those circumstances. That was an easy decision, but not all are.

But in this case, I'd bet the pilot may have felt more inconvenienced than in an emergency by having to descend from 6K to under 3K at about 1K FPM to get under a marine layer. My guess is he didn't realize he had an emergency till it was too late, found himself IMC, while descended right into the terrain expecting to get under it, not hit it. Afterall, if he knew terrain was obscured by the clouds he would have surely turned around. I am betting things happened way too fast to see what was coming. Probably pure ADM. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by kortopates

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

In US our class Ds typically have a ceiling of 2500’ AGL, class Cs 4000’, pretty easy to simply climb over it. Is Australia different?


Tom

 

41 minutes ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Class D varies but generally to 3500' and up to 25 miles whereas some Class C lower limits can go high into the flight levels.

Australia is pretty good but I don't think there is any country whose airspace is as efficient as ours wrt controlled airspace or Class D, C & B airspace. Just to my south there is a Mexican class D that goes to FL195 and out 50 nm! That is somewhat the norm for all of Latin America. It seems the less GA traffic there is, the more stringent the airspace is. But we also probably have the highest density of Class D airports in the world.

[EarthboundMisfit]

With our next AMPA Pilot Safety Program in Perth next month, I am sure this tragic event will be part of the discussion (if not a key theme).  For me, it raises lots of interesting questions around decision making.