Why are airplane batteries terrible?

[kris_adams]

On 9/7/2019 at 6:19 PM, mike_elliott said:

Speaking of Concorde, They will once again be supplying a new battery (12 or 24 V) to the raffle winner at the Mooney Summit VII. Hank Sims will be bringing the certificate with him so we can award it to the winner. Thanks Concorde!
 

I was the lucky winner of this last year.  Great company!

[GeeBee]

Regarding LiFe batteries. This is the EarthX design. Let me tell you about it. A friend asked if his brother could borrow my hangar in July before leaving for AirVenture. He had a Glasair with an EarthX battery, a Dynon display and dual electronic ignition. Both brothers left my airport, KGVL under IFR conditions and were flying on top. In Eastern TN, the Glasair's ADS-B was lost. He had an electrical fire caused by.......the battery. With that, the Dynon stopped working, and soon the engine failed. He glided through the overcast, broke out and saw a field, overshot it, made for another smaller field, crashed. He is still in the hospital.

 Li technology is not for aircraft. Yeah, you can use it to power small items, but when you run big things with high draws even for a short duration, Li techonogy starts to blow up starting with a thermal runaway.. Ask Boeing. Their fix for their Li problems was to encase the battery in a solid billet of titanium 2 inches thick. Tesla has a very sophisticated program that will limit your "throttle" if you draw too hard. You will not do 5 tire burning 1/4 miles in a Tesla. When you add these limitations to the fact that Li tech batteries, be they Li-I or Li-Fe are almost impossible to extinguish if they catch fire make for bad choices aircraft. I have had Li thermal runaway in a Surface tablet aboard a jet and it was not pleasant. Finally had to submerge the thing in a bucket of ice and pour more ice on it.It does not put out the fire, all you are doing is controlling the thermal activity.  Airlines now carry "Li pouches" to control a Li overheat. There is a reason why cargo airlines don't want to carry Li batteries.

I have used AGM's for years in my boats and cars. I had an AGM in my boat blow the case wide open after a haywire charge went bezerk on it. No spill, no danger. The Navy SEALS use AGMs in their boats because they can take a .30 caliber hit and keep working. Nothing in this world right now beats an AGM for robustness in heavy draw applications. 

[jaylw314]

44 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Regarding LiFe batteries.  

+1.  Li battery fires are pretty nasty, and part of the reason I quite RC flying was because I started getting paranoid about storing a bunch of Li batteries in the house.

One other gotcha with Li based batteries is that charging them requires being behind a computer-controlled charger to minimize the risk of fire.  They are not amenable to the constant-voltage type circuits used in most alternator-powered vehicles.  The problem with having them behind a computer-controlled charger is that the battery is not immediately available in the case of an alternator failure or voltage drop.  If the alternator fails with a lead-acid battery, the battery is already on the circuit to prevent a voltage drop.  There are setups for an automatic "switchover" system if the alternator fails (like the EXPBUS for experimentals) that would work for a Li battery, but this adds a layer of complexity and I wonder if the switchover would be fast enough to keep crucial avionics from dropping out.  Presumably, avionics with an internal Li battery backup have some such kind of circuit built in.

 

[RobertGary1]

Why can't they make them out of motorcycle batteries? Concorde rg-35 is only a 390 CCA battery, its not anywhere near the capacity of a car battery. My AGM motorcycle battery is 10 years old, gets abused far worse just still tests out at 200 CCA but is 1/2 the size. Someone should certify just putting 2 AGM motorcycle batteries together. Same cranking amps, lasts far longer and cheaper.

-Robert

[RLCarter]

32 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Why can't they make them out of motorcycle batteries? Concorde rg-35 is only a 390 CCA battery, its not anywhere near the capacity of a car battery. My AGM motorcycle battery is 10 years old, gets abused far worse just still tests out at 200 CCA but is 1/2 the size. Someone should certify just putting 2 AGM motorcycle batteries together. Same cranking amps, lasts far longer and cheaper.

-Robert

You can’t use “certify” and “cheaper” together, it might even be in the FAR’s....

[N201MKTurbo]

36 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Why can't they make them out of motorcycle batteries? Concorde rg-35 is only a 390 CCA battery, its not anywhere near the capacity of a car battery. My AGM motorcycle battery is 10 years old, gets abused far worse just still tests out at 200 CCA but is 1/2 the size. Someone should certify just putting 2 AGM motorcycle batteries together. Same cranking amps, lasts far longer and cheaper.

-Robert

Robert, perhaps you should start an aircraft battery company? It sounds like you could put Concord and Gill out of business.

[RobertGary1]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Robert, perhaps you should start an aircraft battery company? It sounds like you could put Concord and Gill out of business.

I would of course charge double to turbo pilots.

-Robert

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, RobertGary1 said:

I would of course charge double to turbo pilots.

-Robert

Well that's fair we fly twice as high!

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Why can't they make them out of motorcycle batteries? Concorde rg-35 is only a 390 CCA battery, its not anywhere near the capacity of a car battery. My AGM motorcycle battery is 10 years old, gets abused far worse just still tests out at 200 CCA but is 1/2 the size. Someone should certify just putting 2 AGM motorcycle batteries together. Same cranking amps, lasts far longer and cheaper.

-Robert

The cynic in me thinks that inside the Concorde outer casing, you'd find 2 AGM motorcycle batteries and a bill for $200... 

[GeeBee]

Being near the Concorde plant, we had a speaker from them come to our EAA monthly meeting. I can tell you that meeting the TSO is no small task. I once saw a well known Danish electronic defense contractor give up getting a TSO on a nice headset the process was so rigorous. Add to the fact that aircraft batteries are a low production run and you have price. 

 

[Seth]

On 9/7/2019 at 6:20 PM, PTK said:

I just replaced my Concorde RG-35-AXC after 11 years of service. Always on the batteryminder when airplane is in the hangar.

My Concords are at 7 years each right now!!  

-Seth 

[ArtVandelay]

My Concords are at 7 years each right now!!  
-Seth 

Let me guess...you use a battery minder.

So it appears Concordes last a long time when treated like love ones: on a battery minder.
Gills don’t last long, when not on a battery minder (for some reason they aren’t loved).

Lesson is not Gill is worst than Concordes, but aircraft batteries are fragile and requires a battery minder.


Tom

[Seth]

I do indeed.  But I also used a battery minder with the Gil’s that came in my Missile.  They were 2 when they died even when using the battery minder.  They were not on a battery minder the 1st year and she wasn’t flown much that year (last year under previous owner).

In my F model - the Gil it came with lasted the same 2 years - no battery minded. And I put in a concord - no battery minder and sold the plane 1 year later.

-Seth 

 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Let me guess...you use a battery minder.

So it appears Concordes last a long time when treated like love ones: on a battery minder.
Gills don’t last long, when not on a battery minder (for some reason they aren’t loved).

Lesson is not Gill is worst than Concordes, but aircraft batteries are fragile and requires a battery minder.
 

Or use motorcycle AGM batteries which last a very long time without any special care and handle abuse much better.

-Robert

[ArtVandelay]

Or use motorcycle AGM batteries which last a very long time without any special care and handle abuse much better.
-Robert

I would if it were legal.


Tom

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Why can't they make them out of motorcycle batteries? Concorde rg-35 is only a 390 CCA battery, its not anywhere near the capacity of a car battery. My AGM motorcycle battery is 10 years old, gets abused far worse just still tests out at 200 CCA but is 1/2 the size. Someone should certify just putting 2 AGM motorcycle batteries together. Same cranking amps, lasts far longer and cheaper.

-Robert

Where are you getting the 390 CCA number?   The numbers I'm seeing in Concorde's data aren't near that.

If you don't want an RG-35, get an RG-35AXC (that's what I have).   Ipr at about 0 degrees Farhenheit is 700A.

Edited September 10, 2019 by EricJ

[RLCarter]

I had a customer with a GoldWing (Touring Motorcycle) that didn't get ridden much so he came in complaining his battery was ALWAYS going bad. I pulled a $50.00 battery tender off the shelf and told him to put this on it. After 20 minutes of talking himself out of spending the money he walked out empty handed. Three or four months later he rode up on his bike and told me how he solved his problem….. He removed the bulb out of automatic garage door opener and installed a screw in receptacle, reinstalled the bulb and plugged an extension cord into the adapter, ran the cord up and over to his bike and hooked up a regular battery charger, every time the garage door was opened (multiple times per day) it would charge his battery for the 5 or so minutes that the light stayed on. I told him how ingenious that was and that I was kinda impressed, but then he fessed up to spending close to double what I wanted for far less work

[N201MKTurbo]

I had a friend with a COZY. He used an AGM motorcycle battery. He never had any problems with it.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Let me guess...you use a battery minder.

So it appears Concordes last a long time when treated like love ones: on a battery minder.
Gills don’t last long, when not on a battery minder (for some reason they aren’t loved).

Lesson is not Gill is worst than Concordes, but aircraft batteries are fragile and requires a battery minder.


Tom

My first Concorde went seven years, split almost half and half between WV and much warmer AL. New Concorde just turned three, doing great. 

Do not own, have never used and would not recognize a battery minder . . . .

The previous owner replaced Gill batteries every other year. When it died a year after I bought the plane, I got a Concorde AGX for extra CCA, living where winters were pretty cold (for a Southern boy!). 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Where are you getting the 390 CCA number?   The numbers I'm seeing in Concorde's data aren't near that.

If you don't want an RG-35, get an RG-35AXC (that's what I have).   Ipr at about 0 degrees Farhenheit is 700A.

"

Cold Cranking Amps

390"

http://concordebattery.com/flyer.php?id=37

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

"

Cold Cranking Amps

390"

http://concordebattery.com/flyer.php?id=37

RG-35AXC has 440 CCA, and weighs 4 lb more. That's what I have.

[RobertGary1]

Just now, Hank said:

RG-35AXC has 440 CCA, and weighs 4 lb more. That's what I have.

But still wild to think about a small car battery at about the same weight is 690 CCA. Or a motorcycle battery at a fraction of the weight and size is 200 CCA.
Maybe aircraft batteries are 1970's technology due to certification costs. I bet the experimental guys don't use these batteries.

-Robert

[ArtVandelay]

But still wild to think about a small car battery at about the same weight is 690 CCA. Or a motorcycle battery at a fraction of the weight and size is 200 CCA. Maybe aircraft batteries are 1970's technology due to certification costs. I bet the experimental guys don't use these batteries.

 

I was assuming they are weaker because they’re designed to be lighter. But are 2 motorcycle batteries still lighter? AGM technology isn’t cutting edge, but it’s not ancient either.

 

 

Tom

 

[McMooney]

A yellow top would be the perfect battery. 

tough as nails, 800+ cca, deep discharge tolerant and plenty of reserve.

plus when the battery goes, I could just run down to autozone and buy another for a reasonable price

 

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, McMooney said:

A yellow top would be the perfect battery. 

tough as nails, 800+ cca, deep discharge tolerant and plenty of reserve.

plus when the battery goes, I could just run down to autozone and buy another for a reasonable price

 

Yea, I was just noticing the red. 5 lbs lighter than the Concorde and double the cranking amps

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/redtop-starting-battery/25

-Robert