2 Mooneys Touch Mid-Air Inbound to OSH?

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Your point is well made. And while I agree with the Caravan leadership, that MooneySpace and other online forums are not the place to hash out what happened, there has already been and will continue to be a strong response to this incident. This incident is properly discussed and will be better understood within the context of the proper procedures of formation flying. And within that context...

Well said Paul. At some point, I hope we can evolve to hold this properly discussed standard to other incidents that may involve injury and where there may be victims and families that already have a lot to cope with going on, not just peer pressure, deflated egos and where potential cert action appear to be the consequences vs the speculation of mechanical deficiencies, training deficiencies, make deficiencies, etc. 

[Duane Baker]

This does not deter me from taking the Caravan training for next year. Maybe we all could use more training. 

[thinwing]

I was really impressed with the depth of training for this upon hearing from Charles how much time and energy he spent on  formation training .Definitely a step up from the days we “dirt dived”our inflight photo missions using dissimilar aircraft types (Pitts s1s / C172 as example)Glad the only outcome was a bent in wingtip and a rudder ding that looked too me like it occurred during ground handling.

[RogueOne]

53 minutes ago, Duane Baker said:

This does not deter me from taking the Caravan training for next year. Maybe we all could use more training. 

I was deterred from undertaking formation flight training prior to the incident.  I do agree that we all could use more “training” in our planes.  Just not formation training for me.  Enjoy!

[Gary0747]

I was not there and know nothing more about this incident other than what I read here but I will point out the somewhat obvious hazard that Mooney aircraft have in formation flying that others like P and B and C brands do not have as much risk with in flying formation.  We all know how slippery Mooneys are and that they do not slow down easily when one just pulls the power back. Unless one has speed brakes or is able to put their gear down there is an inherent risk in rear ending leading aircraft that may have slowed for what ever reason.  I assume some in the caravan had speed brakes and maybe even some might have put their gear down to get to the assigned speed or slowed for the maze of traffic.  The person with no speed brakes or gear down may not realize that just pulling the power might not be enough to avoid the formation ahead.    I point this out as simply an inherent risk Mooney’s have that may or may not have anything to do with this incident. 

[KSMooniac]

Don't assume this was a rear-end collision!

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[201er]

Lead slowing down, no matter how abruptly, should NEVER be a cause for a collision with wingmen if wingmen are on the proper bearing line which keeps both lateral and vertical separation between all surfaces. In other words, we aren’t ever supposed to fly close enough to be able to run into each other. It’s like driving on a highway where even 3 vehicles in parallel are all in separate lanes and can’t rear end each other.

[steingar]

Much as it pains me to say this, the fact that there was a midair and now everyone's clammed up about it tighter than a nun's fiddlybits does not inspire confidence.

[bonal]

Speculation before all the official reports on this forum as long as its respectful is IMHO a good thing. Of all the threads we have these make me think more about my piloting my maintenance and all things that I might do better. As I stated on another post I'm really sick of how no fault and safety obsessed the whole country has become. Please don't misunderstand that doesn't mean I want to go around doing stupid things that could get me killed or worse someone else.

[bonal]

As far as this particular incident whatever happened I'm so glad no one was hurt but unless I start doing formation flying I don't think there will be much to gain by knowing all the facts. I'm sure it will make for some interesting reading though.

[Yetti]

As it was explained to me last night.   Rule number 1.   don't hit your lead.    Rule number 2.   Don't hit your lead.   The lead has to maintain SA of the wings.     The reason for non caravan people to know about the caravan incident is to evaluate if caravan is for them and something that would fit into their risk profile for flying.

I was able to talk my wife into me becoming a pilot by explaining that more people died in Bicycle accidents per year than GA small plane accidents per year.

Now she flies with me because if we are going to meet Jesus then she would like to do it together.

She would prefer I pilot myself to place vs. dealing with all the crazies on the road.

 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Much as it pains me to say this, the fact that there was a midair and now everyone's clammed up about it tighter than a nun's fiddlybits does not inspire confidence.

As soon as I can speak without jeopardizing insurance claims or affecting enforcement action, I will. Until then, I don't care how badly you'd like to know.

Secondly, formation flying is not something one can learn from a forum like this, and likewise the details, cause, mitigation, etc, won't make nearly as much sense in a forum like this as they will discussed as part of a proper formation training clinic. 

So for those who really care enough to need to know, sign up for a Caravan formation clinic in the spring and learn the details. You're in no way obligated to fly with the Caravan, or to even fly formation. But chances are, you'll be impressed with the seriousness, professionalism, and safety culture promoted by the Caravan regarding formation flying. And for many, just like me, it's become one of my very favorite activities to do with my airplane. Many of us log upwards of 50 hours per year flying formation just because we enjoy it. And for my friends and I, it has easily replaced the $100 hamburger as our favorite good weather weekend flying activity.

Finally, for the truly brave, or foolhardy, my right seat is always available for anyone who'd like to go up and see what it's all about.

[bonal]

As someone that has experienced close quarters in super street motorcycle racing sprint kart racing and loony tunes street riding on the infamous Sunday morning ride. I love the feeling and challenge of control in such chaotic conditions. I know the challenges of formation flying is its own world and very different and hope to someday at least take part in the training. Nothing more exciting as speed in close quarters. And if we ever do make it to OSH I hope I will have demonstrated the skill needed to qualify to arrive with the caravan. Especially since I'm only a VFR guy it's still something I can do.

[DualRatedFlyer]

33 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Secondly, formation flying is not something one can learn from a forum like this, and likewise the details, cause, mitigation, etc, won't make nearly as much sense in a forum like this as they will discussed as part of a proper formation training clinic. 

So for those who really care enough to need to know, sign up for a Caravan formation clinic in the spring and learn the details. You're in no way obligated to fly with the Caravan, or to even fly formation. But chances are, you'll be impressed with the seriousness, professionalism, and safety culture promoted by the Caravan regarding formation flying. 

In no way disagreeing with anything you said (and I appreciate your professionalism towards the parties involved), but for those who have been an active participant of caravans, they tend to continue to fly formation sorties outside of the clinics using the guidelines and SOPs learned in the clinic. To say "If you need to know you will find out in the spring clinic" may be painting with too broad a brush. This coming from someone who doesn't know anything about the details from the event, nor did I fly the caravan this year. I fly formation weekly in FW/RW for my work, but I'm just putting myself in the shoes of those who do not in a professional setting and instead get together with their caravan mates to practice on weekends. I could certainly see their point of view that they may feel as though they are missing out on a learning experience that could help prevent them from ending up in a similar series of events. 

Separate point and nothing to do with your post,  but instead applicable to some of the other comments on mishap speculation, I have been apart of several accident investigations overseas in the sand box. A healthy amount of speculation of "what may have happened" has always been just that - healthy. Spitballing ideas always gets pilots thinking outside the box of the accident chain and how they can fly better, regardless of the root cause. Pilots by nature can be metaphorical organ donors in that we donate ourselves to the pilot community any time we make a mistake by providing others lessons learned, unfortunately sometimes those lessons are written in blood.  Also, keep in mind that the NTSB is comprised of humans (not always independent humans) and sometimes they don't get it right, regardless of how hard they try.

It's the official findings of the mishap that can kill you, as well as the 15 other theories that didn't kill anyone this time, but could have.  All are good learning opportunities and I would hope we as pilots would encourage that learning process while being respectful in the manner we approach it. Waiting until official findings come out to discuss other possibilities could be too late. Wish there would have been more early speculation on the 737 max. They finally got it right, but that didn't do a lot of folks any good.  

Edited July 31, 2019 by DualRatedFlyer

[Hank]

3 hours ago, DualRatedFlyer said:

Separate point and nothing to do with your post,  but instead applicable to some of the other comments on mishap speculation, I have been apart of several accident investigations overseas in the sand box. A healthy amount of speculation of "what may have happened" has always been just that - healthy. Spitballing ideas always gets pilots thinking outside the box of the accident chain and how they can fly better, regardless of the root cause. Pilots by nature can be metaphorical organ donors in that we donate ourselves to the pilot community any time we make a mistake by providing others lessons learned, unfortunately sometimes those lessons are written in blood.  Also, keep in mind that the NTSB is comprised of humans (not always independent humans) and sometimes they don't get it right, regardless of how hard they try.

It's the official findings of the mishap that can kill you, as well as the 15 other theories that didn't kill anyone this time, but could have.  All are good learning opportunities and I would hope we as pilots would encourage that learning process while being respectful in the manner we approach it. Waiting until official findings come out to discuss other possibilities could be too late. Wish there would have been more early speculation on the 737 max. They finally got it right, but that didn't do a lot of folks any good.  

But thsre is ZERO information for us to use for our own education, other than the no-content Official Caravan Statement that two planes "touched" on approach into OSH. Same element, different elements, brushed wingtips, tails, props . . . Pretty sure no windshields were involved . . . Those who saw know, the rest of us remain in the dark. But that's okay, I've been calling myself "King of the Mushrooms" for many years now.

[Yetti]

3 hours ago, DualRatedFlyer said:

Separate point and nothing to do with your post,  but instead applicable to some of the other comments on mishap speculation, I have been apart of several accident investigations overseas in the sand box. A healthy amount of speculation of "what may have happened" has always been just that - healthy. Spitballing ideas always gets pilots thinking outside the box of the accident chain and how they can fly better, regardless of the root cause. Pilots by nature can be metaphorical organ donors in that we donate ourselves to the pilot community any time we make a mistake by providing others lessons learned, unfortunately sometimes those lessons are written in blood.  Also, keep in mind that the NTSB is comprised of humans (not always independent humans) and sometimes they don't get it right, regardless of how hard they try.

 

It is my understanding of Naval accident investigations that all possible scenarios are brought to the table and any question that someone may ask is considered.   Then one by one the possible scenarios are ruled out leaving the one most probable most factual is what is left.   That way when the people coming after go.   hey what about ___________?   There is already a response to the question. 

 

[thinwing]

6 hours ago, steingar said:

Much as it pains me to say this, the fact that there was a midair and now everyone's clammed up about it tighter than a nun's fiddlybits does not inspire confidence.

What exactly are “nuns fiddybits,”...just curious

[carusoam]

Flying formation is interesting...

It takes aviation to a whole new level...

Being a believer in Big Sky Theory...

There are two places where the big sky isn’t so big...

Final approach to any runway....

-and-

Flying formation...

 

So... there was an incident... And the Caravan has procedures to follow...

For the continued health of the sport of GA formation flying... the procedures will be followed...

That can be a bit awkward for people that are interested in knowing what happened... but, I don’t know a different way to find out what happened until the process is complete...

 

To get a feeling for what is involved in the preparation for formation flight... find the Caravan web site... be prepared to read and memorize  a lot of details... no detail is left un covered...

You will probably see how the position of planes are maintained... It is a 3D environment.  Maintaining space is done in 3D...

There are many ways a plane can slow down on its own... so the spacing used, accounts for that possibility as well... a power failure would be like hitting the brakes... the plan covers for that as well...

Formation flight uses many small changes of power to keep spacing where it is supposed to be... there are target airspeeds that lead is keeping... so don’t expect somebody to throw out the speed brakes, drop the gear, or cross control things to slow down in a surprising way... There are no brake lights in the tail, just more power or less power...

There are even plans on how to exit the formation if and when that is needed...

 

As far as secrets, clamming up, or nun’s fidlybits.... hold onto the conspiracy theories...

As far as healthy speculation goes... I’m all for discussions that improve people’s knowledge of flying and how to avoid similar accidents... even if it isn’t directly related to the facts of this situation...

 

I was only a right seat passenger for two formation flights... far from being an experienced Caravaner....

If you are a pilot that likes the magenta line, and spend too much time looking at multiple color screens for traffic and weather.... The AP does the flying and power is set at FT the entire flight...  

Formation flight is quite the opposite... PIC is constantly looking at lead’s plane, adjusting power as needed... might get a glance at other things momentarily... it really helps to bring a navigator along...

Wingmen really like to know who they are flying with... so the different caravan groups tend to stay together... they train together, they practice together, fly formation together...  not a requirement though... many Caravan pilots know a group of B2Osh pilots and practice with them as well... without bumping into the slow folks... 

The MAG (mid Atlantic group) pilots have members up in Canada and the Carolinas... and everywhere in between...

So... If the rule is don’t hit lead... you have to pay attention 100% of the time... Lead won’t see you coming...  there are various guidelines and rules of thumb to make sure you stay in position... if you get out of position, make the adjustment to get back in position...  you can’t count on the plane to get there on its own...

One thing that throws things a bit... all the planes flying are stirring up the air quite a bit... the effects of turbulence can be expected...  the effects may not hit all planes evenly or at the same time... on a hot sunny day... there are plenty of causes for turbulence everywhere...

The flight from Madison to KOSH was a brief flight...

If you haven't flown formation before... See if you can go right seat for a flight...   

PP thoughts only, not a formation pilot...

Best regards,

-a-

[Becca]

15 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

As soon as I can speak without jeopardizing insurance claims or affecting enforcement action, I will. Until then, I don't care how badly you'd like to know.

Secondly, formation flying is not something one can learn from a forum like this, and likewise the details, cause, mitigation, etc, won't make nearly as much sense in a forum like this as they will discussed as part of a proper formation training clinic. 

So for those who really care enough to need to know, sign up for a Caravan formation clinic in the spring and learn the details. You're in no way obligated to fly with the Caravan, or to even fly formation. But chances are, you'll be impressed with the seriousness, professionalism, and safety culture promoted by the Caravan regarding formation flying. And for many, just like me, it's become one of my very favorite activities to do with my airplane. Many of us log upwards of 50 hours per year flying formation just because we enjoy it. And for my friends and I, it has easily replaced the $100 hamburger as our favorite good weather weekend flying activity.

Finally, for the truly brave, or foolhardy, my right seat is always available for anyone who'd like to go up and see what it's all about.

Can you answer this - is the Mooney caravan “grounded” until someone completes some preliminary investigation and appropriate lessons learned or corrective actions are incorporated into both training and procedures?  Will you be able to make those changes before training for next years caravan starts in the winter?

[Yetti]

 

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Becca said:

Can you answer this - is the Mooney caravan “grounded” until someone completes some preliminary investigation and appropriate lessons learned or corrective actions are incorporated into both training and procedures?  Will you be able to make those changes before training for next years caravan starts in the winter?

I would not be too quick to assume a training issue. Sometimes there is a lot of grey area where multiple factors cause an unforeseen problem and sometimes someone just screws the pooch in the face of good training and procedures. The Milwaukee FSDO has stated that N9201A (J model) struck the tail of N197CV (the Ultra). A quick look at the Caravan page shows that N9201A was the scheduled for the lead position and N197CV was scheduled as left wing.  Somehow N197CV ended up in front of N9201A (I can envision no other way the tail of N197CV was struck). Perhaps the change was briefed or perhaps, training be damned, someone just got sloppy.  It is a fact that even the best of human beings suck sometimes.

[steingar]

21 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

But chances are, you'll be impressed with the seriousness, professionalism, and safety culture promoted by the Caravan regarding formation flying. And for many, just like me, it's become one of my very favorite activities to do with my airplane. Many of us log upwards of 50 hours per year flying formation just because we enjoy it. And for my friends and I, it has easily replaced the $100 hamburger as our favorite good weather weekend flying activity.

I really don't want to disparage anyone, and utterly dislike doing so.  You can claim whatever you want about the Caravan, but evidence speaks to the contrary.  Evidence speaks far louder to my ears than the claims of anyone, even those I know and respect.  I suspect it is my heavily scientific nature at work.

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, Becca said:

Can you answer this - is the Mooney caravan “grounded” until someone completes some preliminary investigation and appropriate lessons learned or corrective actions are incorporated into both training and procedures?  Will you be able to make those changes before training for next years caravan starts in the winter?

The Caravan won't fly again until Oshkosh 2020. Clinics aren't scheduled until Feb 2020. Those of us who fly formation will continue to do so. There were several groups of "Caravan" pilots who left Oshkosh in flights of 2, 3 or even 4 planes in formation. I have no doubt that this matter will be concluded and appropriate adjustments made whether policy, procedure, training, or whatever is appropriate, before the Clinics start up in Feb 2020.

While the legal, financial, issues are complex the flying issues are simple. I will likely be flying formation with other Caravan pilots here in Denver in the next few weeks and have no reservations doing so. 

As pilots, we take risks that others might see as foolish, every time we take off. But evidently we all agree the benefits outweigh the risk. I personally feel the same way about formation flying. I know how it has positively effected my flying skills. I also realize the benefits of mutual support during cross country flights in formation. Add to that the enjoyment, and for me, the benefits of formation flying greatly outweigh the risks. And just like as pilots we recognize the risk of flying is not nearly as significant as the non-flying public might imagine,  the risk of formation flying is significantly less than what pilots without formation training, might imagine. I'm not trying to push formation flying on anyone. But I would encourage pilots to withhold judgement until taking the opportunity to participate in a proper controlled formation training environment. 

Many of you like to drive performance cars. And as much as I enjoy driving my BMW on the street, in the mountains, and generally all the time. There is something extra fun about taking it to the track. In that very controlled environment, I can learn to become a better driver, explore the edges of performance, etc. all in a safe environment. And while we generally wear helmets when at track days, it is very unlikely that a car will even get damaged during a track day, much less likely anyone will get injured. In fact, many of us would believe the most dangerous part of track day, is the drive to and from the track.  Formation flying for me is a similar type environment and situation. It's not a perfect analogy, but it works for me.

And now the standard @carusoam disclaimer...

*My comments here are my personal observations and opinions and in no way reflect nor should be interpreted as the official position of the Mooney Caravan. 

[Becca]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I would not be too quick to assume a training issue. Sometimes there is a lot of grey area where multiple factors cause an unforeseen problem and sometimes someone just screws the pooch in the face of good training and procedures. The Milwaukee FSDO has stated that N9201A (J model) struck the tail of N197CV (the Ultra). A quick look at the Caravan page shows that N9201A was the scheduled for the lead position and N197CV was scheduled as left wing.  Somehow N197CV ended up in front of N9201A (I can envision no other way the tail of N197CV was struck). Perhaps the change was briefed or perhaps, training be damned, someone just got sloppy.  It is a fact that even the best of human beings suck sometimes.

If that hypothetical is what happened - That is absolutely both a training and procedure issue that should be addressed before next caravan. You train people how to handle all positions even if not the one original assigned, in case a person gets a last minute “promotion” to lead, and you incorporate procedures for instances in which a position shift is necessary (whatever that means, an such as additional pre-brief discussing a pre planned list of X items).  Agreed that all mistakes can’t be avoided but that a mistake happened doesn’t mean you can’t look behind the curtain to help avoid that or similar mistakes in the future. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Becca

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, Becca said:

If that hypothetical is what happened - That is absolutely both a training and procedure issue that should be addressed before next accident.  You train people how to handle all positions even if not the one original assigned, and you incorporate procedures for instances in which a position shift is necessary (whatever hat means, an additional pre-brief discussing X items).  Agreed that all mistakes can’t be avoided but that a mistake happened doesn’t mean you can’t look behind the curtain to help avoid that or similar mistakes in the future. 

Agree 100%. Just allowing for the possibility of a purely boneheaded maneuver.