Strive for A&P License or Not?

[alextstone]

I need some advice from others who have been down the path of attaining an A&P license.  I am very interested in going through the process.  My reasoning is not to save money on maintenance rather to learn and become a better pilot overall.  I have an AI who is willing to mentor me and help me log the time required.  He has already vetted me as someone with the basic mechanical skills to tackle the challenge.  However, I do not know what I do not know.  That's where those of you who have some experience in this area come in.  What are the pitfalls?  Is this a reasonable goal?  What advice do you have?

Thanks in advance.

Alex

[pwnel]

Mike Busch covers this in detail in the last part of his latest book on aircraft ownership.  

[N201MKTurbo]

Get an online study guide for the three writtens and start going through those. They will tell you what you need to know.

Start reading 43.13 1B, you should know how to do most things in there. 

[alextstone]

34 minutes ago, pwnel said:

Mike Busch covers this in detail in the last part of his latest book on aircraft ownership.  

I've read his other two books.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I will download it tonight.

Alex

 

[alextstone]

32 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Get an online study guide for the three writtens and start going through those. They will tell you what you need to know.

Start reading 43.13 1B, you should know how to do most things in there. 

Yes, I have begun to study these.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[RLCarter]

This might help as well 8082-3A (Test Guide). I've have considered doing the same thing so I'll be following, let us know who you go with for your online studies, although all can be had for free from the FAA website. You can take Practice Tests on this site, good luck and keep us up to date.

[kortopates]

Its not nearly as easy as getting a pilots license. Check to see if there are any community college A&P programs in your area. That's what I did and went to class in the evenings after my day job. It was a long haul of 2 1/2 years of 4 evenings a week from 4:30 to 10pm. But I found the classes entertaining and fun.

[bradp]

Paul that’s what I’m considering but the closest class is an hour commute to and fro.  Hoping that once the toddler gets done with toddler age I’ll have some more evenings to be able to do it. 

For those of use with advanced degrees it seems like maybe 6 plus months of the curriculum is prerequisites.  Could probably cut down on the length significantly with credit.  

[alextstone]

52 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Its not nearly as easy as getting a pilots license. Check to see if there are any community college A&P programs in your area. That's what I did and went to class in the evenings after my day job. It was a long haul of 2 1/2 years of 4 evenings a week from 4:30 to 10pm. But I found the classes entertaining and fun.

Yep Paul, I checked.  Nothing nearby or for that matter in the evenings.   That's why I'm grateful I found an AI to do the mentor-protege arrangement.  

[steingar]

Nice that someone said you had the stones to be an A&P.  No one has ever said that to yours truly, and I doubt anyone ever will.

[M20F]

Can you still get a A&P with a A&I validation anymore?  I thought they tied all that off and you were sort of stuck having to do a school?

A&P is a great ticket and A&I is even better.  

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, M20F said:

Can you still get a A&P with a A&I validation anymore?  I thought they tied all that off and you were sort of stuck having to do a school?

A&P is a great ticket and A&I is even better.  

I got mine from experience. The FAA inspector wasn’t happy about it, but after quizzing me for three hours, he signed me off to take the tests. 

If you are doing it by experience, you better know your stuff.

 

[M20F]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I got mine from experience. The FAA inspector wasn’t happy about it, but after quizzing me for three hours, he signed me off to take the tests. 

If you are doing it by experience, you better know your stuff.

 

A lot did but my understanding is all that got changed a couple years ago.  

[RLCarter]

9 minutes ago, M20F said:

Can you still get a A&P with a A&I validation anymore?  I thought they tied all that off and you were sort of stuck having to do a school?

A&P is a great ticket and A&I is even better.  

Pretty sure an IA can still sign you off with the proper documentation, or at least that how I read the Regs

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, M20F said:

A lot did but my understanding is all that got changed a couple years ago.  

Huh, maybe it did. I haven’t heard that. I did mine in 05.

[N201MKTurbo]

I don’t remember any requirement for an IA sign off. All you needed were letters of recommendation from A&Ps attesting to 30 months of work.

[kortopates]

5 minutes ago, M20F said:

A lot did but my understanding is all that got changed a couple years ago.  

I think you are thinking of the IA's (A&P's with Inspection Authorization). The FAA FSDO's would really like to reduce the number of IA's by dropping those that aren't doing it professionally or full time and there has been much talk of it - purely to reduce the workload of FSDO PI's that over see IA's. But it remained all talk with no change to regulations. IA's may continue to renew on the basis of continuing education alone.

[RLCarter]

§65.77   Experience requirements.

Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator, of—

(a) At least 18 months of practical experience with the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment generally used in constructing, maintaining, or altering airframes, or powerplants appropriate to the rating sought; or

(b) At least 30 months of practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings.

[Andy95W]

33 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I got mine from experience. The FAA inspector wasn’t happy about it, but after quizzing me for three hours, he signed me off to take the tests. 

If you are doing it by experience, you better know your stuff.

 

Rich's experience was identical to my own back in 1997.

[M20F]

4 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Rich's experience was identical to my own back in 1997.

Did you need 

1. You can work an FAA Repair Station or FBO under the supervision of a certified mechanic for 18 months for each certificate, or 30 months for both. You must document your experience with pay receipts, a log book signed by your supervising mechanic, a notarized statement from your employer, or other proof you worked the required time.

I seem to recall it was sort of you didn’t really need to do anything at one point other than get a sign off and pass (no log book, time requirements, etc.), or am I going senile. 

[Andy95W]

Back then it was just a letter from the IA or A&P that you worked for.  I worked for 5 years part-time and it cost me my first marriage, but I got my A&P license so it was a fair trade.

After quizzing me for three hours at the San Antonio FSDO, they finally said, "Well, if Sam says you're okay, then you're probably okay.  Go take the tests."

[M20F]

6 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Back then it was just a letter from the IA or A&P that you worked for.  

Thanks that’s what I thought, appreciate it. 

[Andy95W]

And to the OP @alextstone- I will admit there are definite gaps in my knowledge.   As an apprentice I fixed pressurization problems on a King Air and did a hot-section inspection on a PT-6, but have almost no idea how too set up the fuel flow on a big bore Continental like Clarence @M20Doc could do in his sleep- unless I read a lot and called the factory (or Clarence).  One of the catch-all requirements of an A&P is to not do a job unless you've been trained on it.  So for Continentals, I'm a competent parts changer, but a sub-par troubleshooter.  I refer difficult jobs to people more expert than me.

My suggestion to you is to work on as many different things as you can to get a large base of knowledge.  The A&P tests don't do much for you just like the Private Pilot written doesn't make you a good pilot.

The King A&P videos were pretty decent, though, to fill in some of my knowledge gaps.

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Get an online study guide for the three writtens and start going through those. They will tell you what you need to know.

Start reading 43.13 1B, you should know how to do most things in there. 

^^This.   And the FAA-H-8083 handbooks for general, airframe I and II, and powerplant I and II.   You can download all of those for free from faa.gov, or get hardcopies from amazon for not too much money.

ASA makes a study app called Prepware, that is about $5 each for the General, Airframe, and Powerplant sections.   It is a very good way to study for the written exams.   You need to know everything in the prepware, and the topics are broad and you need a reasonable amount of depth in each.   ASA also makes hardcopies of the same study guide, and Jeppesen makes a hardcopy version that is similar.

There are a bunch of study guides on the Quizlet app (which is free, and the guides are crowdware and free, I can point you at the ones that my class made), that help with the oral exam.   There is an ASA guide and Jeppesen guide for the orals and practicals, and a bunch of the quizlet exams that have been made have been taken from those.

The practical testing methodology for airman certificates, including A&P, changed over the last few years and the examiners (DPEs and DMEs) have a lot less flexibility now in managing the exam.   The oral exam questions are computer generated and you have to answer a certain number correct from each section in order to pass, e.g., you can't be weak on any of the sections like cabin environmental systems, which includes pressurization systems, combustion heaters, air cycle machines, and vapor-cycle air conditioners, and expect to pass airframe.  It's genuinely difficult, this coming from somebody with an advanced engineering degree and an instrument rating.   WAY harder than my instrument exam.

So there are some inexpensive and/or free apps to help prepare for the written and the oral/practical exams.   You really do need to be able to get through the study apps comfortably.  I passed the general/airframe oral/practical a couple weeks ago and will be taking the written in a few weeks, which I'm not nearly as worried about.   Powerplant exams will be next spring for me.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by EricJ

[alextstone]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

^^This.   And the FAA-H-8083 handbooks for general, airframe I and II, and powerplant I and II.   You can download all of those for free from faa.gov, or get hardcopies from amazon for not too much money.

ASA makes a study app called Prepware, that is about $5 each for the General, Airframe, and Powerplant sections.   It is a very good way to study for the written exams.   You need to know everything in the prepware, and the topics are broad and you need a reasonable amount of depth in each.   ASA also makes hardcopies of the same study guide, and Jeppesen makes a hardcopy version that is similar.

There are a bunch of study guides on the Quizlet app (which is free, and the guides are crowdware and free, I can point you at the ones that my class made), that help with the oral exam.   There is an ASA guide and Jeppesen guide for the orals and practicals, and a bunch of the quizlet exams that have been made have been taken from those.

The practical testing methodology for airman certificates, including A&P, changed over the last few years and the examiners (DPEs and DMEs) have a lot less flexibility now in managing the exam.   The oral exam questions are computer generated and you have to answer a certain number correct from each section in order to pass, e.g., you can't be weak on any of the sections like cabin environmental systems, which includes pressurization systems, combustion heaters, air cycle machines, and vapor-cycle air conditioners, and expect to pass airframe.  It's genuinely difficult, this coming form somebody with an advanced engineering degree and an instrument rating.   WAY harder than my instrument exam.

So there are some inexpensive and/or free apps to help prepare for the written and the oral/practical exams.   You really do need to be able to get through the study apps comfortably.  I passed the general/airframe oral/practical a couple weeks ago and will be taking the written in a few weeks, which I'm not nearly as worried about.   Powerplant exams will be next spring for me.

 

That's a great PIREP, thanks.