O-360-A1D Replace Cylinders or ????

[tigers2007]

Hahaha he just answered it.

"You could...but it seems it would be easier just to crank the engine over".

"Removing a gallery plug worries me ... because it could be put back together incorrectly..."

(References improperly placed gallery parts from the Continental factory that were installed incorrectly and without a special compound)

"I'm just not a big fan taking parts apart"

"Pulling a gallery plug out of an engine would not be P.M."

[Pete M]

8 hours ago, PilotCoyote said:

You sir are quite correct. The last time I looked into this (years ago) the shop I was talking to would only do it under experimental. Lycon verified that they provide the service for certified engines. $300 a jug for porting and flow matching.

I can see an experimental engine benefitting from this procedure because you would be free to change your Venturi size. Not so on our engine- so I am doubtful that we would reap a 20hp increase. I’d love to see dyno/fuel flow numbers for a ported O-360 with a stock carb. Very curious what we would get from a $1200 +shipping investment in porting.

They've got a vid of an 0320, i believe making better than 200 hp...may have been 220

[Guest]

2 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Hahaha he just answered it.

"You could...but it seems it would be easier just to crank the engine over".

"Removing a gallery plug worries me ... because it could be put back together incorrectly..."

(References improperly placed gallery parts from the Continental factory that were installed incorrectly and without a special compound)

"I'm just not a big fan taking parts apart"

"Pulling a gallery plug out of an engine would not be P.M."

I will have to disagree with Mike.  There is far greater risk of internal engine damage cranking an engine in an effort to establish oil pressure on an engine than there is removing a gallery plug and hooking a pressure pot to the engine, then reinstalling and torquing thplug when finished.

Ive seen the inside of a low time but little used engine when the crank till you establish oil pressure method was used.  Case overhaul and crankshaft overhaul fixed the damage.

I even pressure pot freshly arrived overhauled engines, it assures a full oil system and instant oil pressure on first start.

Clarence

[cliffy]

Did anyone catch in SB 240W WAY down at the bottom (black square bullet point) that this SB requires the roller tappets be replaced with a prop strike? What does the prop strike AD say?  :-)

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, cliffy said:

Did anyone catch in SB 240W WAY down at the bottom (black square bullet point) that this SB requires the roller tappets be replaced with a prop strike? What does the prop strike AD say?  :-)

 

The AD on Lycoming engines only deals with the crankshaft gear, retaining bolt and lock plate as described in SB 475.  S/B 533 covers the real prop strike inspection but is not mentioned in the AD.

Clarence

[Prior owner]

You can make your own pressure pot...and if you have a remote oil filter you can use a T fitting between the hose and the filter..

[tigers2007]

Wow that is quite the setup. So if you pressure up the pot before bumping the starter, what exactly happens? Does oil start to ooze through the oil pathways? What internals are only lubricated via "splashing oil"?

[cliffy]

doc- it was a rhetorical question. :-) Its the small things that no one reads that catch my eye. 

But then again my mind is full of a melange of items of dubious interest, I actually read large documents like TSOs and such. Things like what is the JT-8 engine N1 speed in RPM? What is the over temp switch setting for the ACM TIT in a 727? What is the head pressure (air) of the A system hydraulics in a 707-320?  Where does the requirement for RG400 antenna cable on WAAS systems come from? What is the min length of antenna cable for a Garmin WAAS GPS and why (maybe lots of radio techs know this one:-)?

Back to our regular program- I was in a similar situation with my O-360 several years ago, 300 hrs into all brand new cylinders and I stripped a 1/4-20 bolt holding the left idler gear stud in inside the rear case at 1400 hrs TTSMO. The PO had put on 4 used cylinders 3 with 3 overhauls on them and one with 4 (I knew this going in), I "repaired" the bottom end with a very well documented "overhaul" and continued time on the (new) cylinders with a hone and new rings. Now with another 600 hrs on same, all is purring like a kitten with no issues. By the looks of it I should make TBO on the bottom end easy even with these cylinders. 

I would suggest to the OP to get a very good bottom end "overhaul" and go with brand new cylinders from Lycoming (even considering today's notice from the FAA about a run of Lyc cylinders that seem to be cracking heads). You never know how much time is on a cylinder that you pick up and have overhauled. If I'm doing all four they're gonna be new. 

You will also notice that I put "overhaul" in quotations. Why you ask? To be perfectly precise one can not call and engine "overhauled" unless the break in is done IAW the manufacturer's procedures and they all require 'calibrated instruments" to monitor the run in. That means that if you use the airplane for the ground run in and you don't have your engine instruments calibrated before you do, it can't be called an "overhaul"  only "repaired" because you didn't follow the manufacturer's "overhaul" directions. If you don't believe me go ask your local FSDO maintenance rep and get back to me with the answer. Just another little bit of minutia in the corners on the mind. 

[Prior owner]

2 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Wow that is quite the setup. So if you pressure up the pot before bumping the starter, what exactly happens? Does oil start to ooze through the oil pathways? What internals are only lubricated via "splashing oil"?

It won’t lubricate the cam lobes, but it’ll lubricate most everything else that gets pressure fed or dribbled, as long as you turn the prop slowly while you pre-lube.

I made mine out of a brand new HF sand blaster that I got on sale. I Pressure washed the inside, sloshed it with some auto gas tank sealer that I had sitting on the shelf and plumbed in an auto spin on filter. Easy to fill, easy to pressurize. Way cheaper than a commercial unit, and it has an oil filter and an air pressure gauge. I’m really happy with it.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, PilotCoyote said:

You can make your own pressure pot...and if you have a remote oil filter you can use a T fitting between the hose and the filter..

That a neat DIY set up!  

I bought a commercial version for my shop, but for occasional use I would have tried a 1 gallon weed sprayer from Home Depot, with a length of hose and a fitting to the front right gallery plug of most Lycoming engines.

Clarence

[pinerunner]

On 4/29/2019 at 7:49 PM, Pete M said:

Condition of camshaft and lifters?

Havent done it but if not gonna overhaul i'd send the good cylinders to lycon for refurb and port, polish, flowmatch and buy 2 new or overhauled from them, do the same thing. They claim 5hp per cyl increase. Have a vid on their site of an o320 on a dyno making well over 200hp, could be 220, dont recall exactly. Read good reviews about their work. Not very eexpenive at all...cheap horsepower, if there is such a thing:)

I wish you could get credit for that 220 hp. Then I could log high performance time.

[Pete M]

1 hour ago, pinerunner said:

I wish you could get credit for that 220 hp. Then I could log high performance time.

As long as you have the endorsement your good. Never seen a hhp time requirement for any job listing, just that you have it.

[Joe Afonso]

On 4/29/2019 at 7:35 PM, Stephen Skinner said:

I am trying to decide what I should do with my motor and asking for suggestions from the group.

While doing a compression test the #4 cylinder measured near 0. We checked the exhaust valve guide and bore scoped the cylinder.  We determined the valve guides were worn to the limits and a small crack close to the lower spark plug hole and a stuck compression ring. We decided to check the exhaust valves and bore scope the other three cylinders and found all exhaust valve guides were all worn beyond limits and one other cylinder had a crack. (Compression for the other 3 ranged #1 72, #2 76, #3 78/80)

My O-360-A1D has 2,200 Hours SMOH and the cylinders could be that old except for rings have been replaced once or twice.  The bottom end was overhauled 400 hours ago with new bearings due to gear up in 2007 and the megs have maybe 300 hours since new.

The options I have come up with are do I:

1. Get 4 new millennium cylinder Kits?
2. Get 2 new millennium cylinder kits and overhaul the other 2?
3. Get 2 new to me overhauled cylinders and overhaul the other 2?
4. Replace the motor with a low time one?
5. Overhaul my motor?

If you only have 400 on bottom I would do a millennium cylinder overhaul, they can’t be beat, cost of overhauled is near new, so why mess around

[wcb]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:16 PM, PilotCoyote said:

I can see an experimental engine benefitting from this procedure because you would be free to change your Venturi size. Not so on our engine- so I am doubtful that we would reap a 20hp increase. I’d love to see dyno/fuel flow numbers for a ported O-360 with a stock carb. Very curious what we would get from a $1200 +shipping investment in porting.

@PilotCoyote @M20Doc What if you are not a carb plane but FI with GAMI injectors.  I think $1200+, Shipping and RR could really be worth 20 hp?  I am in no need now but thinking ahead or simply thinking more speed "I feel the need! The need for SPEED!"

[Prior owner]

1 hour ago, wcb said:

@PilotCoyote @M20Doc What if you are not a carb plane but FI with GAMI injectors.  I think $1200+, Shipping and RR could really be worth 20 hp?  I am in no need now but thinking ahead or simply thinking more speed "I feel the need! The need for SPEED!"

But I have a carb. And I have to accept the limitations of this powerplant, or make it an obsession $$$$$$.... 

I probably won’t spend a small fortune to gain a couple more HP, or spend even more to convert to a fuel injected engine. So I’ve got a 180 HP machine now and forevermore.

I’ve been down the “never ending upgrade journey” road with other vehicles. Never again. Especially now with a 54 year old airframe with structural steel tubing that wasn’t properly manufactured/protected and that cannot be practically replaced($$$$). When the tubes go, that’s it- and with the older planes they are all slowly going from the inside out. Some have planes where PO’s complied early with the SB and they were also kept away from salt air. Many planes were not so fortunate...

The clock is ticking on a lot of these older Mooney airframes. My focus is keeping her airworthy and safe to fly until the inevitable happens- when the Grim Reaper takes her away. Hopefully not in my lifetime.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by PilotCoyote

[wcb]

43 minutes ago, PilotCoyote said:

But I have a carb. And I have to accept the limitations of this powerplant, or make it an obsession $$$$$$.... 

I probably won’t spend a small fortune to gain a couple more HP, or spend even more to convert to a fuel injected engine. So I’ve got a 180 HP machine now and forevermore.

I’ve been down the “never ending upgrade journey” road with other vehicles. Never again. Especially now with a 54 year old airframe with structural steel tubing that wasn’t properly manufactured/protected and that cannot be practically replaced($$$$). When the tubes go, that’s it- and with the older planes they are all slowly going from the inside out. Some have planes where PO’s complied early with the SB and they were also kept away from salt air. Many planes were not so fortunate...

The clock is ticking on a lot of these older Mooney airframes. My focus is keeping her airworthy and safe to fly until the inevitable happens- when the Grim Reaper takes her away. Hopefully not in my lifetime.

 

I fully understand.  I was really referring to my 200 hp gaining an additional 10% of horse power for a few thousand and since it is FI not carb (not having to change a venturi size) it could make a difference.   I have an F that I already upgraded to GAMI injectors a year ago.

[Guest]

Here’s the pre oil pressure pot connected to a freshly overhauled O-360.

Clarence

[MBDiagMan]

On 4/29/2019 at 6:35 PM, Stephen Skinner said:

I am trying to decide what I should do with my motor and asking for suggestions from the group.

While doing a compression test the #4 cylinder measured near 0. We checked the exhaust valve guide and bore scoped the cylinder.  We determined the valve guides were worn to the limits and a small crack close to the lower spark plug hole and a stuck compression ring. We decided to check the exhaust valves and bore scope the other three cylinders and found all exhaust valve guides were all worn beyond limits and one other cylinder had a crack. (Compression for the other 3 ranged #1 72, #2 76, #3 78/80)

My O-360-A1D has 2,200 Hours SMOH and the cylinders could be that old except for rings have been replaced once or twice.  The bottom end was overhauled 400 hours ago with new bearings due to gear up in 2007 and the megs have maybe 300 hours since new.

The options I have come up with are do I:

1. Get 4 new millennium cylinder Kits?
2. Get 2 new millennium cylinder kits and overhaul the other 2?
3. Get 2 new to me overhauled cylinders and overhaul the other 2?
4. Replace the motor with a low time one?
5. Overhaul my motor?

How is the oil pressure?