The AV 30 Looks Good

[jetdriven]

I think on those airplanes you pull to the bufffet or max AOA at cornering speed. But honestly i don’t see how this is useful for a Mooney.  And the device has an unreliable and impossible to calibrate AOA function. 

[cliffy]

"Modern Control Theory"  written by Bill Brogan   Las Vegas NV retired UNLV

[DXB]

AV-30 looks like a wonderful entry into the steam gauge to digital replacement arena.

Sadly it doesn't meet the need for low cost but sophisticated glass backup to the Aspen pfd.  Nor would I want it to with only a 1/2 hr battery.  I hope this need gets met.  I am still pursuing an "illegal" G5 install for this purpose.  

[aviatoreb]

59 minutes ago, DXB said:

AV-30 looks like a wonderful entry into the steam gauge to digital replacement arena.

Sadly it doesn't meet the need for low cost but sophisticated glass backup to the Aspen pfd.  Nor would I want it to with only a 1/2 hr battery.  I hope this need gets met.  I am still pursuing an "illegal" G5 install for this purpose.  

I think it is strange these instruments to give such a limited battery.  I mean how much extra cost/weight does it take to give it 2hrs of battery? In a $2k piece of equipment, plus install - Im thinking $10 marginal cost for the equipment manufacturer to give it a better battery?  So why such a pitiful battery?

And a 30 min battery when new may well be a 20min battery a few years on after the battery is less than pristine/new.

Edited March 4, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Bob - S50]

On 3/4/2019 at 5:52 AM, DXB said:

AV-30 looks like a wonderful entry into the steam gauge to digital replacement arena.

Sadly it doesn't meet the need for low cost but sophisticated glass backup to the Aspen pfd.  Nor would I want it to with only a 1/2 hr battery.  I hope this need gets met.  I am still pursuing an "illegal" G5 install for this purpose.  

On the other hand, if you are relying on that battery that means you lost all your electrical power.  No more GPS.  No more Comm radio.  You probably lost the alternator and were running on ship's battery for some time.  If that happened to me and I was IMC I would declare an emergency and get headed for the nearest suitable airport.  If you are to the point where the ships battery is now dead and relying on the ADI battery you are in a world of hurt unless you are VMC.  For me that would mean I was down to NORDO and my tablet for navigation.  For those with Apple products that don't have a built in GPS they would be even worse off.

My point is, if I'm now relying on the ADI battery, I should have long ago been trying to land.  Unless I'm out in the wild west, I don't think you would have a hard time finding an airport at which you could land in 30 minutes or less.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Bob - S50
grammar

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

On the other hand, if you are relying on that battery that means you lost all your electrical power.  No more GPS.  No more Comm radio.  You probably lost the alternator and were running on ships battery for some time.  If that happened to me and I was IMC I would declare an emergency and get headed for the nearest suitable airport.  If you are to the point where the ships battery is now dead and relying in the ADI battery you are in a world of hurt unless you are VMC.  For me that would mean I was down to NORDO and my tablet for navigation.  For those with Apple products that don't have a built in GPS they would be even worse off.

My point is, if I'm now relying on the ADI battery, I should have long ago been tying to land.  Unless I'm out in the wild west, I don't think you would have a hard time finding an airport at which you could land in 30 minutes or less.

Yes - true - but absolute minimum - I want to continue having "a good attitude".  a 30 min battery when new may well actually be 20 min when aged a little bit.  Are you sure you can always be on the ground in 20 or 30 min?  I am not.  sometimes yes sometimes no.  For an extra $10 I would be willing to pay I would sooner they offer me the 2hr battery.  Batteries are so cheap these days I just shake my head and say why?!

[DXB]

9 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I think it is strange these instruments to give such a limited battery.  I mean how much extra cost/weight does it take to give it 2hrs of battery? In a 2k piece of equipment, plus install - Im thinking $10 marginal cost for the equipment manufacturer to give it a better battery?  So why such a pitiful battery?

And a 30 min battery when new may well be a 20min battery a few years on after the battery is less than pristine/new.

Agree with Erik. Note the Garmin G5 comes with a 4hr battery that has a $120 replacement cost and a pretty trivial swap process. After your alternator fails, you'll run out of gas before the G5 quits. That's the kinda bulletproof you want if you're headed into IMC, and it's much cheaper to maintain than a vac pump and vac-driven AI. The AV-30's battery may give you 15 reliable minutes in real world use, and the unknown of when it will quit is enormous added stress in a crappy situation where you actually NEED that battery. The AV-30 has more bells and whistles than the G5 for sure, but a fair weather pilot really doesn't need these tools.  By contrast, the AV-30 may still may be an inferior choice to a well maintained vac-driven AI system for serious flying, assuming you lack a standby alternator.  

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, DXB said:

Agree with Erik. Note the Garmin G5 comes with a 4hr battery that has a $120 replacement cost and a pretty trivial swap process. After your alternator fails, you'll run out of gas before the G5 quits. That's the kinda bulletproof you want if you're headed into IMC, and it's much cheaper to maintain than a vac pump and vac-driven AI. The AV-30's battery may give you 15 reliable minutes in real world use, and the unknown of when it will quit is enormous added stress in a crappy situation where you actually NEED that battery. The AV-30 has more bells and whistles than the G5 for sure, but a fair weather pilot really doesn't need these tools.  By contrast, the AV-30 may still may be an inferior choice to a well maintained vac-driven AI system for serious flying, assuming you lack a standby alternator.  

Exactly.

And to those that say that if their alternator goes out then no problem declare an emergency and get on the ground in less than 30 min.  a) for $10 bucks, or $120 bucks, or whatever why cheap out on a 30 min battery vs a 2hr or a 4hr battery that they should design in.  b) I have had a severe emergency and it took surprisingly long to get onto the ground.  Last year I lost my engine (not fun!! another story but the thread is on here) - long story short turbo went, making smoke in the cabin so I thought I may well have a fire.  So at 16500 I decided I needed to get onto the ground asap - flew to nearest airport at v glide and then commercial steep spirals to get down as quickly as possible.  It still took about 15 minutes to get down to the ground and that was in severe clear with no approach needed.  (for those that did not read that thread - it all worked out happily very smoothly other than a big scare - dead stick but smooth landing on an airport and that smoke was just smoke and not a fire).

Considering less dire but just an alternator failure, imagining yourself 15 minutes from the nearest airport (as is often the case up here in rural land) and also you are say at 10 or 12,000 ft and in IMC  - by normal procedures, following an approach plate, how long does it take to get onto the ground?  I claim its pretty close to 30 min if everything goes smoothly - and what if your backup battery promised for 30 min only gives 20 min.  And no missed needed.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, nosky2high said:

We had an alternator circuit breaker fail, luckily on a CAVU VFR day sometime ago. The one time I failed to have spare fuses on board. We flew all the way back from KS to FL on battery power only, a four hour plus cross country flight. We had the audio panel, IFR gps/com, indicators, nav 1, xponder, led lights, and engine monitor running the entire time.  I had my handheld ready and portable GPS charged. We never needed it and landed with 11.8 volts according to the voltmeter. 

We also replace our concord RG aircraft battery every three years with new regardless of condition. It’s good insurance.

If you’re serious about knowing your airplane, why not go fly on a VFR day, pull the alternator CB and practice. Then you will know your aircraft’s battery life instead of relying on the arbitrary 30min figure. 

 

 

 

That's great.  But nonetheless I maintain that I find it irritating that they would build in a 30 min battery when a 2hr battery would be almost trivial to put in there instead.

Yes yes and I say that with knowing that I have two big mAMP batteries in the tail.  What if something else has failed besides the alternator, but perhaps, the voltage regulator in a way that prevents the battery from feeding the instruments?  I don't know - but anyway a battery inside the attitude indicator is great so why not do it right is all I am saying?

[aviatoreb]

55 minutes ago, nosky2high said:

https://www.kellymfg.com/esp_battery.html

Here's another option for folks to consider as well.

I would chose this along with the AeroVonics AI/DG and save a bundle over Garmin.

Be safe, chose wisely.

Now that's a great idea!

[ArtVandelay]

https://www.kellymfg.com/esp_battery.html
Here's another option for folks to consider as well.
I would chose this along with the AeroVonics AI/DG and save a bundle over Garmin.
Be safe, chose wisely.

Why does it have a 15 pin D shell connection?
You need only 3; ground, power in, power out.


Tom

[Steve W]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Why does it have a 15 pin D shell connection?
You need only 3; ground, power in, power out.


Tom

Remote switch with a button to control it, power and ground in and out , the installation manual is more useful. I'm not sure it actually shows the 15 pin pinout as it always seems to have to come with a harness. I bought one for my RCA2610 backup digital AI. Finding a place to hide it in the Mooney was a pain. For now it's in my right radio stack.

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Steve W

[Bob - S50]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Yes - true - but absolute minimum - I want to continue having "a good attitude".  a 30 min battery when new may well actually be 20 min when aged a little bit.  Are you sure you can always be on the ground in 20 or 30 min?  I am not.  sometimes yes sometimes no.  For an extra $10 I would be willing to pay I would sooner they offer me the 2hr battery.  Batteries are so cheap these days I just shake my head and say why?!

Remember though, that is 30 minutes AFTER your ship's battery quits.  That's 30 minutes after you've lost the ability to communicate or navigate using built in equipment.  If your life depends on being able to fly around aimlessly for more than 30 minutes while IMC then you have bigger problems than only having a 30 minute battery.  If you turn off all unnecessary equipment and don't use electric trim, your ship's battery will probably last quite some time.  Say an hour.  That gives you 90 minutes to get on the ground.  Nosky2high said his lasted 4 hours.

It's a marketing decision.

Like every other product out there, consider the value it provides, the limitations it has, what it costs; and then decide if you want it or not.  If you don't like it because the battery only lasts 30 minutes then don't buy it.  Or if you are really concerned about needing more time, consider getting approval for a larger capacity ship's battery or installing a backup alternator or a second ship's battery.  All those options would keep more than just the ADI working.

[aviatoreb]

53 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Remember though, that is 30 minutes AFTER your ship's battery quits.  That's 30 minutes after you've lost the ability to communicate or navigate using built in equipment.  If your life depends on being able to fly around aimlessly for more than 30 minutes while IMC then you have bigger problems than only having a 30 minute battery.  If you turn off all unnecessary equipment and don't use electric trim, your ship's battery will probably last quite some time.  Say an hour.  That gives you 90 minutes to get on the ground.  Nosky2high said his lasted 4 hours.

It's a marketing decision.

Like every other product out there, consider the value it provides, the limitations it has, what it costs; and then decide if you want it or not.  If you don't like it because the battery only lasts 30 minutes then don't buy it.  Or if you are really concerned about needing more time, consider getting approval for a larger capacity ship's battery or installing a backup alternator or a second ship's battery.  All those options would keep more than just the ADI working.

Right - everything is a marketing decision.  For my vote it gets a knock because of that marketing decision, and perhaps a vote for G5.  I will see.  Meanwhile nothing I want is available yet. (G5 to drive my KFC200, or a GFC500, or...I am undecided).

If this thing were available today - I would have purchased it instead of overhauling my KI256, and I bet I would purchase some kind of backup battery.

Aren't there failure modes where you cannot access your ships battery?  Say a voltage regulator failure?  Or maybe an electrical fire that causes us to want to turn off the electrical switch?  Attitude is sufficiently important that I would want to have a good battery.  AT $2000 I would be happy to pay $2010 for one with a good battery.

I agree on one hand with yours, and several others, statement that goes if you don't like it then don't buy it.  But this is a forum, so we discuss what it is we don't like and maybe we buy it anyway, but buy some kind of fix or anyway the discussion helps inform all of us what are the issue to make most informed choices best for each of our individual needs.

[DXB]

Note the Aspen pfd only requires bus voltage to drop from 14V to 12.3V very briefly before it switches to the 30 minute backup battery.  That drop was instant when my alternator failed (thankfully in VMC). It does not wait for ship's battery to run down. The bright red display showing % remaining internal battery life ran down scary fast after that.  I was directly over an airport at ~5500 when the alternator quit, and the pfd read 60% battery remaining by the time I circled down and landed.  Also note that the interval for changing the wimpy Aspen backup battery is 3 years or 800hrs - but how many folks actually do that? It is a $400 ordeal to change it.  Someone on Beechtalk posted the battery was at 15% capacity after 3 years when he changed it.  

I'm not sure what how Av-30 and other pfd units behave after alternator failure, but I suspect it is pretty similar  to the Aspen?  If the pfd's battery life is long, then switching to the internal battery is desirable for preserving GPS and radio.  With a short battery life (which rapidly gets shorter over the life of the unit), the unit making this switch to internal battery could  be deadly. I say no thanks to any electronic primary or backup AI with a short battery life going forward. My Aspen will get upgraded to the Max version, which has a  much better battery supposedly.

The RCA2610 backup battery is a $725 item that requires changing every 3 years as well and is supposed to provide 5 hours backup to that minimalist unit.  I have no idea how it would perform with other units  that may need more power, so it seems like too much experimentation to me.  The backup battery on the G5 seems ideal for both long life and low cost to replace.

[Steve W]

10 minutes ago, DXB said:

The RCA2610 backup battery is a $725 item that requires changing every 3 years as well and is supposed to provide 5 hours backup to that minimalist unit.  I have no idea how it would perform with other units  that may need more power, so it seems like too much experimentation to me.  The backup battery on the G5 seems ideal for both long life and low cost to replace.

Well, it's $725 to purchase. I haven't contacted them recently but the cost to replace the battery in 2017 was $150, but it's not user servicable so you'll be out for however long it takes to get to them and back. Looks like list on the G5 battery is also $150 but much easier to replace.

[cliffy]

As the original OP on this thread I'm going to stick my neck out here a little.

I find this entire argument somewhat silly. Many are trying to compare this instrument to a full on flight director system. It ain't and it never was supposed to be anything near a full on FD system. It is to replace the old vac system instruments- 1 for 1. And that's it. 

If you fly high and you fly over terrain or weather that limits your options?, if you "need" a full on FD- You need something else than the Av30.  It's your risk assessment! All it costs is more money. Why knock something for a job it was never designed to do?

Now lets talk batteries. 

You worry about a 1/2 hr rating for a 3rd backup. Any idea what a Boeing 737 has for a ships battery back up time if you go DC only?   How about 30 mins (in the ones I flew). That is why we taught our pilots that if they go DC only- GYAOTG!!! NOW!  And that was from 35,000 feet! Going dead alternator, in our airplanes,  is the same issue!!!

If the Aspen drops into battery back up mode at  gen failure  voltage then that is a design problem.

But, if you are IMC and you lose your alternator - HOW MUCH FURTHER ARE YOU GOING TO FLY BEFORE YOU GO "GYAOTG" mode? You gonna wait until you run out of ships battery? Without an alternator (or back up one) you are in emergency mode the moment it fails if you are IMC! GYAOTG! NOW! Just a fact of life flying something without dual gens. 

How many thousands of airplane have operated IMC with only a single Vac pump? What has been the rate of failure to land if it fails? Your backup was your T&B. Did you know how to complete an emergency decent using it? How far did you fly when you lost the vac pump? Not far, you went GYAOTG mode and landed. 

Here's a final point in this diatribe- How many of you follow the ships battery maker's directions to a "T" both in initial charging and in the CAW requirements to do a capacity check on your battery every annual? Does your shop even have the proper gear to do a capacity check properly? I'll bet 1 out of 100 of you do either. In my 55 years as an A&P I've seen very few shops ever do the initial charge by the book and almost every airplane owner has no idea what the CAW is or for on their battery.  How many of you have "jump started" your airplane with a dead battery? Why didn't you take it out and recharge it "by the book" and THEN check it for capacity? What if you had to rely on it 20 mins after takeoff? Like an inflight fire , emergency return and you have an electrically powered gear? Will it go down or do you now have to fight a fire and figure out your alternate gear extension system? You do know that if it goes flat, it losses capacity, don't you? How many of you feel that if it starts the engine its OK to rely on? NOT!!!  How many of you fly your battery until it won't start the engine anymore and THEN and ONLY THEN do you buy a new one? But yet you fly IMC a lot of the time. HMMMMM. How many of you really know how long your ship's battery will last if its needed? Have you ever checked it? (Just too many years of trying to make some understand certain limitations). 

We sit here and worry about a third backup instrument not working but we toss out the second item-(and most important backup) the ship's battery- without even a thought, year to year, by most. 

The AV30 was never meant to be a full on FD but it is a damn fine replacement for the vac system instruments and very useful for limited IMC- just like the old vac system stuff was only the Av30 eliminates the vac system problems.

If its really an issue you could always install a second ADI and power it with a venturi. Then, if you have airspeed you have a solid horizon instrument. Some of us flew IMC a lot with only venturi driven instruments. 

Now, if you want to know why ALL jets have a third battery driven ADI (separate from the entire a/c electrical system), I can tell you the story in another thread. 

Stepping off the soap box. 

[DXB]

2 hours ago, cliffy said:

As the original OP on this thread I'm going to stick my neck out here a little.

I find this entire argument somewhat silly. Many are trying to compare this instrument to a full on flight director system. It ain't and it never was supposed to be anything near a full on FD system. It is to replace the old vac system instruments- 1 for 1. And that's it. 

If you fly high and you fly over terrain or weather that limits your options?, if you "need" a full on FD- You need something else than the Av30.  It's your risk assessment! All it costs is more money. Why knock something for a job it was never designed to do?

Now lets talk batteries. 

You worry about a 1/2 hr rating for a 3rd backup. Any idea what a Boeing 737 has for a ships battery back up time if you go DC only?   How about 30 mins (in the ones I flew). That is why we taught our pilots that if they go DC only- GYAOTG!!! NOW!  And that was from 35,000 feet! Going dead alternator, in our airplanes,  is the same issue!!!

If the Aspen drops into battery back up mode at  gen failure  voltage then that is a design problem.

But, if you are IMC and you lose your alternator - HOW MUCH FURTHER ARE YOU GOING TO FLY BEFORE YOU GO "GYAOTG" mode? You gonna wait until you run out of ships battery? Without an alternator (or back up one) you are in emergency mode the moment it fails if you are IMC! GYAOTG! NOW! Just a fact of life flying something without dual gens. 

How many thousands of airplane have operated IMC with only a single Vac pump? What has been the rate of failure to land if it fails? Your backup was your T&B. Did you know how to complete an emergency decent using it? How far did you fly when you lost the vac pump? Not far, you went GYAOTG mode and landed. 

Here's a final point in this diatribe- How many of you follow the ships battery maker's directions to a "T" both in initial charging and in the CAW requirements to do a capacity check on your battery every annual? Does your shop even have the proper gear to do a capacity check properly? I'll bet 1 out of 100 of you do either. In my 55 years as an A&P I've seen very few shops ever do the initial charge by the book and almost every airplane owner has no idea what the CAW is or for on their battery.  How many of you have "jump started" your airplane with a dead battery? Why didn't you take it out and recharge it "by the book" and THEN check it for capacity? What if you had to rely on it 20 mins after takeoff? Like an inflight fire , emergency return and you have an electrically powered gear? Will it go down or do you now have to fight a fire and figure out your alternate gear extension system? You do know that if it goes flat, it losses capacity, don't you? How many of you feel that if it starts the engine its OK to rely on? NOT!!!  How many of you fly your battery until it won't start the engine anymore and THEN and ONLY THEN do you buy a new one? But yet you fly IMC a lot of the time. HMMMMM. How many of you really know how long your ship's battery will last if its needed? Have you ever checked it? (Just too many years of trying to make some understand certain limitations). 

We sit here and worry about a third backup instrument not working but we toss out the second item-(and most important backup) the ship's battery- without even a thought, year to year, by most. 

The AV30 was never meant to be a full on FD but it is a damn fine replacement for the vac system instruments and very useful for limited IMC- just like the old vac system stuff was only the Av30 eliminates the vac system problems.

If its really an issue you could always install a second ADI and power it with a venturi. Then, if you have airspeed you have a solid horizon instrument. Some of us flew IMC a lot with only venturi driven instruments. 

Now, if you want to know why ALL jets have a third battery driven ADI (separate from the entire a/c electrical system), I can tell you the story in another thread. 

Stepping off the soap box. 

 I don't know the first thing about electrical systems and procedures on big jets, so the parallel is uninformative. I also don't have anywhere close to that level of training and carefully conditioned responses and never will. My airmanship and decision making in a crisis will never be as fast or clear as yours. I'm a private pilot with a limited budget and time who struggles to maintain instrument proficiency and wants to manage risks around flying in IMC. 

With that in mind, I still think that such "drop in  1:1 replacements" for vac-driven AIs are anything but straightforward replacements. They trade one set of liabilities for another. When the electrical system goes in IMC,  the battery support on your electronic AI had better be good - the outlook for my doing well with the turn coordinator running off the ship's battery is not so rosy.  So do we know that, unlike the Aspen, the Av-30 and similar units only rely on the internal battery backup when the ship's battery is significantly depleted? Do we know the minimum voltage they need to keep drawing from the ship's battery?  I don't have an answer, but it would be really good to know - perhaps more important to know about than its dozen other functions or the modest savings over a G5.  It now seems easy and relatively cheap to make these new  replacements pretty bulletproof - it's a shame not to do it. 

You make a good point about battery maintenance.  But I simply don't have the ability to ensure my IA does a proper capacity test at annual and somehow I suspect they never have. I do keep it on a Battery Minder all the time, so that should help.  So maybe we should all just replace our batteries routinely every 3 years or so?

Edited March 5, 2019 by DXB

[Marauder]

 I don't know the first thing about electrical systems and procedures on big jets, so the parallel is uninformative. I also don't have anywhere close to that level of training and carefully conditioned responses and never will. My airmanship and decision making in a crisis will never be as fast or clear as yours. I'm a private pilot with a limited budget and time who struggles to maintain instrument proficiency and wants to manage risks around flying in IMC. 
With that in mind, I still think that such "drop in  1:1 replacements" for vac-driven AIs are anything but straightforward replacements. They trade one set of liabilities for another. When the electrical system goes in IMC,  the battery support on your electronic AI had better be good - the outlook for my doing well with the turn coordinator running off the ship's battery is not so rosy.  So do we know that, unlike the Aspen, the Av-30 and similar units only rely on the internal battery backup when the ship's battery is significantly depleted? Do we know the minimum voltage they need to keep drawing from the ship's battery?  I don't have an answer, but it would be really good to know - perhaps more important to know about than its dozen other functions or the modest savings over a G5.  It now seems easy and relatively cheap to make these new  replacements pretty bulletproof - it's a shame not to do it. 
You make a good point about battery maintenance.  But I simply don't have the ability to ensure my IA does a proper capacity test at annual and somehow I suspect they never have. I do keep it on a Battery Minder all the time, so that should help.  So maybe we should all just replace our batteries routinely every 3 years or so?

I suspect they call them “emergency” battery backups for a reason. I am seriously looking at the B&C backup generator instead of relying solo on these emergency batteries.

With multiple emergency batteries available, I am relying on the rollover approach to power management. I have my circuit breaker panel labeled to know quickly which breakers can be pulled to offload the system and then count on rolling the PFD to the MFD in reversion and then finally to the ESI-500. The weak link is the battery. Both Don M and Jerry 5TJ showed us load capacity testing. Changing out the battery frequently may not be the solution. Finding another juice source may be the correct answer.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[DXB]

11 hours ago, DXB said:

 So do we know that, unlike the Aspen, the Av-30 and similar units only rely on the internal battery backup when the ship's battery is significantly depleted? Do we know the minimum voltage they need to keep drawing from the ship's battery?  I don't have an answer, but it would be really good to know - perhaps more important to know about than its dozen other functions or the modest savings over a G5. 

Rather than continue to conjecture, E-mailed the company to get a real answer to the question above.  Here is the immediate response and the exchange that followed:

Rep: "The AV-30 will last around 2 hours at normal ambient temperatures, but that goes down to 30 minutes at -20C.  It will not transition onto internal battery until the bus voltage gets into the 7V range."

Me: "Thanks Jeff!  Any info on required battery replacement interval and cost?"

Rep:"Nothing formal yet, but I would expect once every 5 years or so.  It will be less than $100."

WOW, a truly modern, reasonably priced product that I would not be afraid to use or have as my backup in IMC, and definitely a  heavyweight competitor to Garmin given its ability to drive an autopilot. This is really what avionics should look like in 2019!

Me: " Thanks very much again!   One last question (sorry) – any chance it can be used as a legal backup AI for an Aspen pfd, or only as primary AI?"

Rep: "Primary AI for now.  We think additional testing would be required for the backup, as odd as that sounds"

DAMMIT!!!  Back to the bleak reality of GA.  Gotta hand it to Aerovonics though - I hope they keep going and eventually drink Garmin's milkshake .  

 

[Bob - S50]

On 3/4/2019 at 7:01 AM, aviatoreb said:

Yes - true - but absolute minimum - I want to continue having "a good attitude".  a 30 min battery when new may well actually be 20 min when aged a little bit.  Are you sure you can always be on the ground in 20 or 30 min?  I am not.  sometimes yes sometimes no.  For an extra $10 I would be willing to pay I would sooner they offer me the 2hr battery.  Batteries are so cheap these days I just shake my head and say why?!

I just came up with a solution for you.  If you lose all ship's power, your TC will no longer work either.  Both the G5 and the Dynon D10A are approved to replace either the AI or the TC, but not both.  So pick one of those two to replace your TC and the AV-30 to replace your AI.  Then if your power fails you'll have two independent battery powered attitude sources.

[Marauder]

8 minutes ago, DXB said:

Rather than continue to conjecture, E-mailed the company to get a real answer to the question above.  Here is the immediate response and the exchange that followed:

Rep: "The AV-30 will last around 2 hours at normal ambient temperatures, but that goes down to 30 minutes at -20C.  It will not transition onto internal battery until the bus voltage gets into the 7V range."

Me: "Thanks Jeff!  Any info on required battery replacement interval and cost?"

Rep:"Nothing formal yet, but I would expect once every 5 years or so.  It will be less than $100."

WOW, a truly modern, reasonably priced product that I would not be afraid to use or have as my backup in IMC, and definitely a  heavyweight competitor to Garmin given its ability to drive an autopilot. This is really what avionics should look like in 2019!

Me: " Thanks very much again!   One last question (sorry) – any chance it can be used as a legal backup AI for an Aspen pfd, or only as primary AI?"

Rep: "Primary AI for now.  We think additional testing would be required for the backup, as odd as that sounds"

DAMMIT!!!  Back to the bleak reality of GA.  Gotta hand it to Aerovonics though - I hope they keep going and eventually drink Garmin's milkshake .  

 

Yep and it won't be long before Garmin gobbles them up.

[pinerunner]

18 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Yep and it won't be long before Garmin gobbles them up.

Nooooooooo!

[aviatoreb]

25 minutes ago, DXB said:

Rather than continue to conjecture, E-mailed the company to get a real answer to the question above.  Here is the immediate response and the exchange that followed:

Rep: "The AV-30 will last around 2 hours at normal ambient temperatures, but that goes down to 30 minutes at -20C.  It will not transition onto internal battery until the bus voltage gets into the 7V range."

Me: "Thanks Jeff!  Any info on required battery replacement interval and cost?"

Rep:"Nothing formal yet, but I would expect once every 5 years or so.  It will be less than $100."

WOW, a truly modern, reasonably priced product that I would not be afraid to use or have as my backup in IMC, and definitely a  heavyweight competitor to Garmin given its ability to drive an autopilot. This is really what avionics should look like in 2019!

Me: " Thanks very much again!   One last question (sorry) – any chance it can be used as a legal backup AI for an Aspen pfd, or only as primary AI?"

Rep: "Primary AI for now.  We think additional testing would be required for the backup, as odd as that sounds"

DAMMIT!!!  Back to the bleak reality of GA.  Gotta hand it to Aerovonics though - I hope they keep going and eventually drink Garmin's milkshake .  

 

WOW - that is fantastic. And despite snappy be a tough pilot acronyms like "GYAOTG" - as a possible customer I greatly appreciate the concept of a 2hr battery more than a 30 min battery.

Question for you folks.  I am confused by the phrase "primary" and "backup" when we are talking about an AI here that can drive my autopilot.  Is this AV-30 meant to be primary?  Or backup?  I have a mechanical lifesaver that I presume can remain a backup.  I would guess the AV-30 is a primary?

[Marcopolo]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

Question for you folks.  I am confused by the phrase "primary" and "backup" when we are talking about an AI here that can drive my autopilot.  Is this AV-30 meant to be primary?  Or backup?  I have a mechanical lifesaver that I presume can remain a backup.  I would guess the AV-30 is a primary?

Erik,

 

  The way I'm reading it is that they are only certifying it as Primary for the foreseeable future, since your Lifesaver is already certified as a backup AI then this fits your scenario.  What I don't see in the literature (and I may just be missing it) is a Flight Director, your KFC200 has one, not sure you can give that up.

 

Ron