Request Coaching on Mooney Dip

[MBDiagMan]

I have a shoulder problem that has come up.  Since the shoulder issue I flew the Mooney solo once and raising the gear set my shoulder on fire.  I have flown with a safety pilot who handled the gear and will fly with an instructor with Johnson Bar experience tomorrow morning.  I am able to continue my instrument training in it for now, but solo flight is out until I can manage the gear.

A few months ago a nice gentleman flew into our airport in an F.  In visiting with him he asked if I had ever learned the Mooney dip.  He said that he could push the the gear lever down with two fingers.  Is there anyone who can comment or describe how they do it?  At this point my thinking is that if I climb several hundred feet at 80MPH, then dip the nose while simultaneously pushing down on the handle it might work.

Thanks for any advice, instructions or comments you might offer.

[HRM]

20 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Is there anyone who can comment or describe how they do it?  At this point my thinking is that if I climb several hundred feet at 80MPH, then dip the nose while simultaneously pushing down on the handle it might work.

That's how it is done. Gear raise is near effortless and once you get the hang of it you look forward to it! Sort of like the old Unix saw: it's not a bug, it's a feature.

You do need to twist your hand as the bar goes down, but fluidity with that comes with practice. Also, one fluid motion and hardly requiring more than normal nerd-level coordination.

Lastly, great fun with young, never been in a Mooney, smart-alecky CFIs.

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks HRM!  I assume that you unlock the lever from the dash first, then dip it and push on the lever simultaneously.

How much altitude do you usually build before doing it?

[TheTurtle]

just move the gear before you hit 90mph and you dont have to dip and dive and act like a weirdo.. 

[HRM]

5 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks HRM!  I assume that you unlock the lever from the dash first, then dip it and push on the lever simultaneously.

How much altitude do you usually build before doing it?

Yep. I have done it so often that I reach down, unlock it, then do the nod while pulling down and rotating my hand around to push it into the floor catch. I don't even look anymore.

Altitude wise I can't say, but I do it fairly soon after take-off and I've cleaned her up for climb.

[MBDiagMan]

Well, I have been pulling the gear as soon as I get off the runway at 80MPH with a positive rate of climb, but since my shoulder injury I can’t do that anymore.

[gsxrpilot]

Try this with a safety pilot watching the runway/altitude/etc. You can do the Mooney dip within the first 50 ft. It just takes a sharp push. You shouldn't lose any altitude. But it needs to be coordinated with the j-bar swing. When done right, it takes two seconds and the gear will almost put themselves away. 

Release the j-bar from the block first then as soon as it starts to move aft, give a sharp/short dip with the yoke and simultaneously guide the j-bar home. It shouldn't take any power at all from your right arm/shoulder.

[carusoam]

50 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks HRM!  I assume that you unlock the lever from the dash first, then dip it and push on the lever simultaneously.

How much altitude do you usually build before doing it?

Practice at a safe altitude...

usually we do this as we leave the surface.  

The surface and a usual T/O are not needed to practice gear stowage.

Speed is most critical to success.  The gear doors are trying to pull the gear down... (nice feature)

gear doors are least effective at doing their job at the lowest flying speed...

The springs (?)  are trying to help put the gear away...

there is barely enough spring to help put the gear away...

The dip, uses a bit of momentum to help...

use the plane’s attitude to get the slow speed.

use the proper MP to maintain altitude or increase altitude as in a T/O.

Following all the advice on how... like Paul’s, is great.  

Just have good knowledge/practice before doing it solo near the ground.

Sort of like practicing power on stalls... simulate the T/O at a higher altitude...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards, 

-a-

[steingar]

Yeah, practice with an instructor.  I don't do it, I've always been able to muscle it down at about 80 mph.  Bu tit does take uuumph, no two fingers.  I'm a bit skittish about pushing the yoke in that close to the ground.  That said, if you have someone capable in the right seat to make certain you don't get into dutch, it should be fine.  

[gsxrpilot]

Let me point something out that I don't think has been mentioned. This can be done while still in a climb attitude. All you need is a momentary negative G situation. The plane should not actually go nose below the horizon. You could even practice this without moving the gear. On the climb out, see if you can make everyone float out of their seats for just a second with a sharp forward motion on the yoke. Don't continue on over in the parabola. It's just a quick motion to create a second of negative G. If the gear is free and in motion at that same instance, it will be enough to push them right into the housings.

[jetdriven]

25 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Try this with a safety pilot watching the runway/altitude/etc. You can do the Mooney dip within the first 50 ft. It just takes a sharp push. You shouldn't lose any altitude. But it needs to be coordinated with the j-bar swing. When done right, it takes two seconds and the gear will almost put themselves away. 

Release the j-bar from the block first then as soon as it starts to move aft, give a sharp/short dip with the yoke and simultaneously guide the j-bar home. It shouldn't take any power at all from your right arm/shoulder.

What I’ve noticed with some passengers is that sharp push just off the runway and flailing around the cockpit scares the hell out of them

Edited June 27, 2018 by jetdriven

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

What I’ve noticed with some passengers is that sharp push just off the runway and flailing around the cockpit scares the hell out of them

Yeah, a pilot flailing around the cockpit is never reassuring to passengers. 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for the further responses.

I have a very experienced and highly recommended instructor starting with me tomorrow.  He flies everything from J3’s to Hawkers and everything in between and has manual gear Mooney time.  I finally passed my instrument written and feel fortunate to be flying with him.

Before my shoulder problem I had no trouble at all stowing the gear just off the runway at 80 MPH indicated.  I then would trim for 105 climbout speed with everything forward.  I understand that 105 gives adequate air flow for cooling during the climb..  If I climb out a few hundred feet at 80, I am assuming that I won’t be starving the engine of cooling air.

[ilovecornfields]

I’m assuming you got the shoulder looked at and it’s stable? I dislocated my shoulder scuba diving once and it was not pleasant. I would hate to do it while trying to take off or land.

[Seymour]

Even though I practiced on jacks, my first attempts to retract the gear on takeoff were amusing.   Attempted to stow the gear at Vy and thought there'd have to be a crossfit bootcamp included in the transition training.   And when it finally got to the floor, locking it took an eternity.   However, at 80kts, it retracts with a good push to the floor (but I can understand how that it would be painful with a shoulder injury).   My 'Mooney Wave', when necessary, never makes it to wings level; just reduce the pitch of the climb for an instant and the bar drops right down.

Now, if someone has advice on how to avoid releasing both seatbelts when dropping the gear....

[gsxrpilot]

7 minutes ago, Seymour said:

Now, if someone has advice on how to avoid releasing both seatbelts when dropping the gear....

That's the advanced class 

[Ned Gravel]

25 minutes ago, Seymour said:

Even though I practiced on jacks, my first attempts to retract the gear on takeoff were amusing.   Attempted to stow the gear at Vy and thought there'd have to be a crossfit bootcamp included in the transition training.   And when it finally got to the floor, locking it took an eternity.   However, at 80kts, it retracts with a good push to the floor (but I can understand how that it would be painful with a shoulder injury).   My 'Mooney Wave', when necessary, never makes it to wings level; just reduce the pitch of the climb for an instant and the bar drops right down.

Now, if someone has advice on how to avoid releasing both seatbelts when dropping the gear....

Or you can get the Alpha Aviation seat belts with the latch that is not affected by swinging the gear.....

[HRM]

6 hours ago, steingar said:

Yeah, practice with an instructor.  I don't do it, I've always been able to muscle it down at about 80 mph.  Bu tit does take uuumph, no two fingers.  I'm a bit skittish about pushing the yoke in that close to the ground.  That said, if you have someone capable in the right seat to make certain you don't get into dutch, it should be fine.  

Absolutely! Go find the youngest, greenest, ATP-bound, time-building local FBO CFI/I you can. Don't get one that knows Mooney's--no fun in that.

Good grief already...this is not rocket science. Oh, and when you 'do the nod' you can do it with two fingers (a bit awkward though) 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

Or you can get the Alpha Aviation seat belts with the latch that is not affected by swinging the gear.....

Or get a narrower bum! I remember a friend of mine with a wider bum peeling a finger nail off when he caught it on the seat belt buckle, while extending the gear in my first Mooney.

Clarence

Edited June 28, 2018 by M20Doc

[steingar]

I dunno, my wife and I are both pretty diminutive and I still undue seat belts with the bar.  I now take a little more care with the S in GUMPS.

[MyNameIsNobody]

This is a technique problem.  Rotate at 75 NOT 80.  Use takeoff flaps.  As soon as airborne swing gear.  This is NOT a high physical demand task.  Yes it needs to be fluid and yes it is a skill and YES if you are waiting to long and airspeed increases it is physically difficult to impossible.  Why squeamish?  If the plane is trimmed once it breaks ground it wants to climb.  The swing literally takes a second from release to locked.  This should be a non-event.

[Hank]

75-80 mph at rotation? I generally pull on the yoke passing through 70 mph . . . . The book does say "65-75 mph" though.

Initial climb at 80, then relax to 100 mph when clear.

[skydvrboy]

Granted, I am a very new Mooney pilot and I've only flown my Mooney, but I've never understood all the fuss about moving the gear.  Maybe my springs are adjusted "just right" but I can easily operate it at any speed at or below Vge.  I could see how you might have a problem if you had a shoulder injury, but I'd think range of motion would be a bigger problem than amount of force. 

I also thought the "Mooney dip" was just from people moving the yoke without their elbow firmly planted in the armrest.  I learn something everyday on MS, now I have to go flying to try it.

The only time I've had trouble with the gear was when my copilot thought the space between the seats was meant for her purse.

[MBDiagMan]

I have never considered myself a weakling.  Before my shoulder problem I could stow the gear with the best of them.  I tried the dip this morning and set my shoulder on fire.  At this point it is just too tender.  I have had an MRI, a CT scan and two appointments with the sport medicine ortho Doc.  There is a growth in there and other problems.  There is no solo Mooney flying any time in my near future.  I am even at the point of heaving to decide whether to convert it to electric, trade up or get out of the Mooney business.

Not the best day of my life.

[takair]

Might consider electric gear Mooney.  Maybe someone will consider a trade.  Need to also consider a botched landing or IFR missed approach.  I usually do approaches at speeds above Vx/Vy and at those speeds, the gear is harder to put away, even with the dip...  I can imagine how frustrating this must be.