smlynarczyk Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I am looking at a J with an engine approaching TBO and would consider buying the plane but need some cost estimates because I would opt to have an engine swap upon purchase. I checked out the 2015 posting here on MS by (DHC) and it seems like a pretty big ordeal (oil lines, hoses, prop governor, ...). Any insights into the cost for going with the factory IO-360-A3B6? Also, a shop recommendation for that price? Any other considerations? Thx. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 To get your spreadsheet started: Lycoming ad in TAP: Factory new (exchange) $56,410 Factory rebuilt (exchange) $34,613 Factory overhaul (exchange) $30,114 plus accessories, r&r... I suppose a name brand engine shop would be somewhat below the factory. 1 Quote
FloridaMan Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 You're looking at just shy of $60,000 for a factory new IO360A3B6 and you can expect around $5,000 for the install, hoses, prop governor, et cetera. I wouldn't go with a factory new engine unless someone else was paying for it. Sure, you'll get roller tappets. If the engine came from the factory within the past so many years (I want to say it's 20, but not sure), you can get a discount on a factory overhaul/exchange and you'll get the roller lifters; though I've also heard that the rollercam engines make slightly less power, but still within the tolerance range, than the flat-tappetted engines. I had Aero Engines of Winchester overhaul my IO360A1A and it cost me $23,500 for an overhaul with new flow-matched cylinders and I could not be happier. Call Aero Engines of Winchester and ask them about it. I think they would even be able to do the R&R of the engine and include that in the flat price estimate for you. 3 Quote
jetdriven Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 Roller tappets came out in most engines in 2005. 1 Quote
FloridaMan Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I was referring to the discount on a factory o/h if the exchanged engine was a factory engine from within so many years. When was the existing engine overhauled, by whom, and how many hours does it have on it? Unless there were signs that the engine needed to be replaced, I would discount the plane accordingly for having a timed out engine, but I wouldn't proactively replace it if it's still making good power, compression and not making metal. 4 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 The first time I did factory new. At 1050 hours a rod separated. The second time I saved the $20k and went with factory reman. -Robert 2 Quote
jaylw314 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 3 hours ago, jetdriven said: Roller tappets came out in most engines in 2005. IIRC, if the Lycoming serial # ends with an E, it has roller tappets 1 Quote
FloridaMan Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 And if that engine has roller tappets, you've eliminated the major cause for needing an overhaul with Lycoming engines. Most aftermarket engine shops use parts made by Superior, which are, well, superior to Lycoming parts. Just recently, there was a major AD for all engines that could've been overhauled between November of 2015 and summer of 2017 that contained a bushing manufactured by Lycoming. The AD came back a couple of weeks after my engine had been overhauled. Fortunately, the shop didn't use the Lycoming part. If you had a Lycoming engine that the AD might have applied to, the inspection would cost around $1500 and the service was estimated at well over $2000 on top of it if you had one of the bad bushings. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/august/10/faa-issues-ad-for-lycoming-engine-bushings In other words, a factory Lycoming engine is not necessarily better, safer, more reliable, nor should it give you any more peace of mind than an engine overhauled by a competent builder. All things being equal, a roller cam engine might give you a better resale value, but you'll pay for more than that difference up front. 2 Quote
jaylw314 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Antares said: And if that engine has roller tappets, you've eliminated the major cause for needing an overhaul with Lycoming engines. Most aftermarket engine shops use parts made by Superior, which are, well, superior to Lycoming parts. Just recently, there was a major AD for all engines that could've been overhauled between November of 2015 and summer of 2017 that contained a bushing manufactured by Lycoming. The AD came back a couple of weeks after my engine had been overhauled. Fortunately, the shop didn't use the Lycoming part. If you had a Lycoming engine that the AD might have applied to, the inspection would cost around $1500 and the service was estimated at well over $2000 on top of it if you had one of the bad bushings. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/august/10/faa-issues-ad-for-lycoming-engine-bushings In other words, a factory Lycoming engine is not necessarily better, safer, more reliable, nor should it give you any more peace of mind than an engine overhauled by a competent builder. All things being equal, a roller cam engine might give you a better resale value, but you'll pay for more than that difference up front. The other problem is that we haven't seen enough data with the roller lifter engines yet. We kind of intuitively feel that there should be fewer longevity problems, but there just haven't been enough old engines with roller lifters to really answer that question yet. 3 Quote
jetdriven Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) They’ve been out for 13 years now and thousands of engines, exactly how many failures have we read about? Just about every person I know with the Lycoming engine is had to replace it the past few years beucase of one reason and one reason only.. cam and lifter spalling. Aside from that the engines effectively last indefinitely. Edited June 14, 2018 by jetdriven 3 Quote
smlynarczyk Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Posted June 14, 2018 Thanks everyone for all of the great info. Very helpful. Quote
carusoam Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 Compare to a factory reman + new prop for about 60amu... done on the O... Continental and TopProp... Its wholly cow expensive... it better last a long time... Best regards, -a- Quote
gsxrpilot Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 http://www.jewellaviation.com/overhauls.htm 3 Quote
AlexLev Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: http://www.jewellaviation.com/overhauls.htm About 80 hours and 3 months on my Jewell overhaul so far for an O-360. So far, so good. I did ask them about roller tappets, but couldn't spring 8K for a new crankcase. Hopefully I fly enough that the lifters won't be an issue this time. Maybe I'll start using CamGuard too. They did tell me that they overhauled an engine once with roller tappets and the gentleman was from Louisiana; pretty much everything on the inside of the engine was corroded except the roller tappets. Edited June 14, 2018 by AlexLev 3 Quote
jaylw314 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, AlexLev said: About 80 hours and 3 months on my Jewell overhaul so far for an O-360. So far, so good. I did ask them about roller tappets, but couldn't spring 8K for a new crankcase. Hopefully I fly enough that the lifters won't be an issue this time. Maybe I'll start using CamGuard too. They did tell me that they overhauled an engine once with roller tappets and the gentleman was from Louisiana; pretty much everything on the inside of the engine was corroded except the roller tappets. IIRC, there is some problem with the modification to the crankcase to be able to install roller tappets in a field overhaul. Can't remember if it was just a cost thing or not, though 12 hours ago, carusoam said: Compare to a factory reman + new prop for about 60amu... done on the O... Continental and TopProp... Its wholly cow expensive... it better last a long time... Best regards, -a- "wholly cow"?? 1 Quote
smlynarczyk Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: http://www.jewellaviation.com/overhauls.htm I like these prices... Quote
Hank Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, jaylw314 said: IIRC, there is some problem with the modification to the crankcase to be able to install roller tappets in a field overhaul. Can't remember if it was just a cost thing or not, though "wholly cow"?? You got a beef with his spell-changer??? 2 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, smlynarczyk said: I like these prices... A field overhaul is always going to be cheaper than factory and certainly cheaper than factory new. However it is built on the assumption that all your major parts are reusable after inspection. A bad crank and add $12K. -Robert Quote
jetdriven Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 You cannot Modify a case for roller tappets. Some experimental guys do but AFAIK the only source for a roller engine is Lycoming. 1 Quote
Guest Posted June 14, 2018 Report Posted June 14, 2018 Superior Airparts XP series have roller tappets, we can hope they will work toward the certified line up. Clarence Quote
carusoam Posted June 15, 2018 Report Posted June 15, 2018 Wholly cow... Mostly cow... but, not 100% cow... Holy cow... a religious idol? According to Harry Carray’s (italian steak house) in Chicago.... See pic below the blue spots are actually holes in the cow... hole-y cow?... When measured In AMUs.... that’s a lot of cow Relearning how to spell the MS way... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
jetdriven Posted June 15, 2018 Report Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) Like the surface of my buddy’s IO360 lifters. 400 SMOH, Camguard, philips oil, flown weekly. But the overhaul was cheaper than the factory one, saved a bundle ! Edited June 15, 2018 by jetdriven 1 Quote
dr_caligari Posted June 16, 2018 Report Posted June 16, 2018 Hi, i was in a similar situation two year ago. I went with the factory remanufactured engine that has two seperate magnetos and is the only option (apart from new engine) that comes with a Zero time engine and brand new log book. Those engines are finished on the same assembly line as the factory new engines. You also getting all new hardware See pics below. An overhauled engine is not a zero time engine. In regards to the cost for the exchange and prop governor modifications you need to make to accommodate the new angle, the total cost was $45k installed. That included around $35k for the reman engine (ordered through AirPower straight from the Lycoming factory in PA) plus $800 exchange shipping, plus various additional parts, hoses etc. needed for install, plus getting the prop governor changed through Santa Monica propellers, plus install labor. Feels free to PM me if you wanna discuss more. Hope this helps. Tim 2 1 Quote
FloridaMan Posted June 16, 2018 Report Posted June 16, 2018 23 hours ago, jetdriven said: Like the surface of my buddy’s IO360 lifters. 400 SMOH, Camguard, philips oil, flown weekly. But the overhaul was cheaper than the factory one, saved a bundle ! Was this the one where they reground the tappets instead of replacing them? Quote
jetdriven Posted June 16, 2018 Report Posted June 16, 2018 I don’t know the particulars of this exact engine but I’ve seen them both ways. Quote
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