Tempest fine wire - issues

[Piloto]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I don’t see how sophisticated your test was, but fine wire plugs will go quite a bit leaner from peak before any vibration occurs, foul far less often,  require a simple cleaning with a piece of safety wire every 50hr instead of sand blasting, and last over 2000hr.  There’s even some folks that think they produce marginally more HP due to an unshrouded spark lighting off the charge more  consistently. 

The Tempest massive will lean beyond peak without any vibration, just power reduction. Just try them.

José 

[Piloto]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

My current set of Tempest fine wires will outlast my flying career. I have only 6 years and 400+ hours on them.

My Tempest massive have over 9 years and 900 hours and performing like new. Looking forward to outlast them.

José

[Bob_Belville]

José,

I cannot find any authoritative studies confirming your (personal anecdotal) experience. The fine wires seem to have design advantages irrespective of the well documented here QC advantage of Tempest vs. Champion in recent years.

This appears to be an older analysis but it includes confirmation of @jetdriven's comments. 

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Spark Plugs-Fine-Wire-vs-Massive.htm  

[aaronk25]

1600 hours on fine wire tempests! Look almost like new.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Yetti]

187 hours is what the service life was for one of my fine wires.

[Piloto]

23 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

José,

I cannot find any authoritative studies confirming your (personal anecdotal) experience. The fine wires seem to have design advantages irrespective of the well documented here QC advantage of Tempest vs. Champion in recent years.

This appears to be an older analysis but it includes confirmation of @jetdriven's comments. 

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Spark Plugs-Fine-Wire-vs-Massive.htm  

Bob

Noticed that the article does not mention the Tempest massive plugs. Unlike the Champions old massive I found the Tempest massive to be very good performers with much longer life than the Champion massive. I am just an old cost/safety conscious guy expressing my findings. As you get older you will find that not everything in the Bible is true.

Don José

 

[Mooneymite]

23 minutes ago, Piloto said:

As you get older you will find that not everything in the Bible is true.

Is this rant bait?  

[Piloto]

8 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Is this rant bait?  

It is simple to understand. When you are gone where would you rather be: in Heavens with Mother Theresa or in Hell with JLO.

 

[Bob_Belville]

48 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Bob

Noticed that the article does not mention the Tempest massive plugs. Unlike the Champions old massive I found the Tempest massive to be very good performers with much longer life than the Champion massive. I am just an old cost/safety conscious guy expressing my findings. As you get older you will find that not everything in the Bible is true.

Don José

 

Yeah José, the article is undated but old, referencing Autolite® Aviation Spark Plugs by Unison, but the reason I linked it was this paragraph:

"There are two primary reasons why fine wire plugs are more effective than massive plugs.
First, the massive electrode’s shear size shields its own spark from some of the fuel / air mixture around it. The result is less than even ignition which is less efficient. 
"Second, the iridium alloy used in the fine wire plug allows the use of a larger spark gap.
"The larger gap results in a hotter more powerful spark."

And I've about run out of the older/wiser thingy. The law of diminishing returns and all that.

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Piloto said:

Bob

Noticed that the article does not mention the Tempest massive plugs. Unlike the Champions old massive I found the Tempest massive to be very good performers with much longer life than the Champion massive. I am just an old cost/safety conscious guy expressing my findings. As you get older you will find that not everything in the Bible is true.

Don José

 

Ten Commandments of Cheap Bast$#ds

1) Thou shalt not spend more on anything than necessary (this includes spark plugs)

2) Thou shalt not covet another Mooney owner's paint job, interior or avionics

3) Thou shalt not pay retail when Lance's discount is available

4) Thou shalt not let your hangar fairies be found

5) Thou shalt run LOP except if your GAMI spread is bad

6) Thou shalt not land with an IAS over 70 knots unless thoust is in a heavily loaded long body

7) Thou shalt do a go around if thoust porpoised the landing

8) Thou shalt disagree vehemently with Peter "Bendix King" Garmin

9) Thou shalt not mention Timmy

And the most important Cheap Bast$#d commandment of all:

10) Thou shalt not commit adultery with Marauder's girls 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Marauder

[Piloto]

Bob

Here are pictures of missing electrodes for fine wire plugs. But could not find a picture for massive plugs.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fine+wire+plugs+missing+electrode&qpvt=fine+wire+plugs+missing+electrode&FORM=IGRE

My concern is having a failed Iridium electrode rubbing between the cylinder walls and the piston rings.

José

 

[Bob_Belville]

16 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Bob

Here are pictures of missing electrodes for fine wire plugs. But could not find a picture for massive plugs.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fine+wire+plugs+missing+electrode&qpvt=fine+wire+plugs+missing+electrode&FORM=IGRE

My concern is having a failed Iridium electrode rubbing between the cylinder walls and the piston rings.

José

 

José, ??? The link let me too all kinds of electrodes but I don't see the ones with missing electrodes. 

Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to tell us if your concern for what damage a loose iridium wire might possibly do. (I did have an engine "swallow" an exhaust valve years ago. The head of that valve, which was hundreds of times larger than a plug wire electrode, did beat up the cylinder and piston surfaces pretty badly but did not interfere with the stroke and I still had 3 cylinders producing power and no oil loss.) 

You seem to like anecdotal evidence. When I bought my E the previous owner had been running massives. About half the plugs had been replaced and he carried 2 back up plugs in the plane just in case. I replaced the plugs with fine wires within 25 hours having had enough with fouled plugs and hard starting. I only bought 8 plugs, now 6 years old, and I no longer carry a spare.  

[StevenL757]

On 5/24/2018 at 2:54 PM, Tempest said:

Good afternoon,

My name is John Herman and I am VP Sales & Marketing with Tempest Aero Group.  I apologize that you had an issue related to our fine wire plugs.  I believe this to be an isolated case, however, we take all cases such as this very seriously.  We strive to manufacture the highest quality products possible and therefore if there is an issue such as this we want to know about it and investigate to assure it never happens again.  In cases like this, it can be one or several factors that caused the problem and to the best of our ability, we will examine the plug and operating environment to determine the root cause.

Please contact me at john@tempestaero.com and we will discuss an arrangement to get the plug sent back to us, as well as send you a set of replacement plugs at no charge as a customer courtesy.

Again, we are dedicated to manufacturing quality products and providing a great customer experience.  I apologize that we have not met these standards in your eyes, but you have my word we will do everything possible to rectify the situation.

Best regards,

John

And this is exactly why I choose to do business with Tempest, and also choose to invest ~$850 in fine wire plugs.

John, speaking unofficially, thank you for your time and candor to help support this community and also help keep our engines healthy.

Steve

[Piloto]

Bob, this forum started about missing electrodes on fine wire plugs and the experience of others with the same issue. No mention of missing electrodes on massive plugs.

José

[Yetti]

Let's call this the final report

Found the audio tape which helped recreate the events.  and had a debrief with the other pilot in the plane.  Transcribed the audio.   First one is transcript of audio with the second with in cockpit conversations.    Also updated the track around the circuit with information from the other pilot of what he saw out his window.

 

King air coming in to land 7 miles out

 

20:00 – 5DeltaMike – 7 Miles out

20:14 – Mooney – Departing 16 with left turn out

20:15 – 5DM – Watching for Mooney

21:11 – Mooney – Upwind of 16 turning out to left

21:12 – 5DM – What is altitude

21:13 – Mooney – Left turn out upwind

21:48 – Mooney – Declare Emergency

22:08  - Mooney – Were putting down on 16 now

23:00 – 5DM – Base

23:35 – 5DM – Final

24:04 – Mooney – Clear active

 

METAR

KMAF 231753Z 10SM BKN043 29/17 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP126 T02890167 10289 20217 58004 $

 

In cockpit audio with other SEL Rated Pilot

King air coming in to land 7 miles out

 

20:00 – 5DeltaMike – 7 Miles out

20:14 – Mooney – Departing 16 with left turn out

20:15 – 5DM – Watching for Mooney

21:11 – Mooney – Upwind of 16 turning out to left

21:12 – 5DM – What is altitude

21:13 – Mooney – Left turn out upwind

Engine stumbles and comes back

First time Pilot hears the stall horn chirp.

Pilot remembers seeing a large square brown building on initial push over

Pilot – “Seems like it is back”

Copilot -  “We still have to land it”

Pilot – Thinks to self “hell yes we are putting her down somewhere”

Copilot “Do you want me to declare emergency?”

Pilot – “Do whatever I am flying the plane”

Second time pilot hears stall horn chirp – copilot never heard stall horn chirp

21:48 – Mooney – Declare Emergency End of recording keyed up mike “ do you want to do seven”

Pilot – “no”  thinks - Way too high downwind probably never get it down + we had just talked about a jet taking off with a downwind.

Copilot - “need flaps” 

Pilot – Throws out gear, then flaps

22:08  - Mooney – Were putting down on 16 now - 

We are on base over the end of 16

Pilot remembers watching the turn coordinator making sure we stay coordinated.

We are pointed parallel to 16

Copilot “we can put it down in the dirt”

Pilot thinks – nah we got this

23:00 – 5DM – Base

23:35 – 5DM – Final

24:04 – Mooney – Clear active

 

Go to ramp and burn off, but still running with a skip.

 

 

Other debrief questions to the copilot.

“How close were we to the ground doing the turn to the right?”  Copilot “Very Close”

We figured we were about 700-800 feet at the left turn out.   There is a golf course to the east of the airport.  If the engine had quit we believe we would have made it to the golf course.

Pilot remember wanting to say really close to the airport in case the engine went away again.

Copilot apologized for talking so much.  Pilot says not to worry he was ignoring him

 

Lesson learned:

1.        Practice Power off 180s and being tight into the airport.

2.       Practice full power take of angle with someone pulling the throttle to idle and having to push over.   It really is an abrupt maneuver that requires memory reflex.

TTempest has provided replacement plugs I will pull the others at the next oil change.

 

KMDD2-CTAF-May-23-2018-1930Z.mp3

[philiplane]

Tempest makes great products, and on the rare occasion you do have a problem, you cannot ask for better support. They will make it right.

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, philiplane said:

Tempest makes great products, and on the rare occasion you do have a problem, you cannot ask for better support. They will make it right.

Agreed. I would encourage them to change their policy a bit, however (  @Tempest got your ears on?) I purchased some massives about 3 years ago for the Bravo I fly and one was defective out of the box. Mag check after installation quickly pointed this out. A call to Tempest, and yes, send the old one in and they will fix it. Which is what they did. Same plug back, but working this time.

Downside, was the wait plus having to re-install an old champion then decowl once again to reinstall the repaired (not replaced) new plug. A simpler solution would have been to send out a new plug and trust me to send the defective one back for analysis vs waiting the 2 weeks to get it repaired, or take a credit card in case I didnt send it back. Why this would have made a difference is I would not have had to repeat the labor process and left it decowled. Not a biggie, but room for improvement here.

But that is my ONLY ding on these fine products and fine company

disclaimer: Tempest is a huge supporter of the Mooney Summit. Vince Bechtel of Tempest has been behind our mission and cause for a number of years, donating a set of fine wires to our silent auction. THANKS FOR SUPPORTING THE MOONEY COMMUNITY TEMPEST!!!

[Yetti]

3 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Downside, was the wait plus having to re-install an old champion then decowl once again to reinstall the repaired (not replaced) new plug. A simpler solution would have been to send out a new plug and trust me to send the defective one back for analysis vs waiting the 2 weeks to get it repaired, or take a credit card in case I didnt send it back. Why this would have made a difference is I would not have had to repeat the labor process and left it decowled. Not a biggie, but room for improvement here.

 

They sent me plugs based on pictures and an email without getting the other ones back yet.  I am waiting on oil change to R&R the plugs. So they are great to work with.

[Yetti]

Looks like another fine wire failure. 

On a training flight this morning, after a normal run up and departure, I noticed what seemed like the engine missing a little. Barely detectable but still caught my attention. I took the controls and flew the plane along a major highway (not many options at that spot). Then I was able to figure out that it was rough running on full power. Worse on the left mag, right mag was pretty good. We followed the highway to the airport and had an uneventful landing. After landing, I did another standard run up and found no indications of any issues, normal RPM drop and no roughness. My little bit of troubleshooting allowed the mechanics to isolate it within about 30 minutes and have it back in the air shortly after.

Spark plug was damaged and not firing properly. The center conductor was somehow damaged and mostly missing.

 

[clh]

Had similar problem about 4 months ago.  Center electrode missing.

[jonhop]

On 6/1/2018 at 8:45 AM, Bob_Belville said:

On 6/1/2018 at 8:30 AM, Piloto said:

Bob

Here are pictures of missing electrodes for fine wire plugs. But could not find a picture for massive plugs.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fine+wire+plugs+missing+electrode&qpvt=fine+wire+plugs+missing+electrode&FORM=IGRE

My concern is having a failed Iridium electrode rubbing between the cylinder walls and the piston rings.

José

 

José, ??? The link let me too all kinds of electrodes but I don't see the ones with missing electrodes. 

Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to tell us if your concern for what damage a loose iridium wire might possibly do. (I did have an engine "swallow" an exhaust valve years ago. The head of that valve, which was hundreds of times larger than a plug wire electrode, did beat up the cylinder and piston surfaces pretty badly but did not interfere with the stroke and I still had 3 cylinders producing power and no oil loss.) 

You seem to like anecdotal evidence. When I bought my E the previous owner had been running massives. About half the plugs had been replaced and he carried 2 back up plugs in the plane just in case. I replaced the plugs with fine wires within 25 hours having had enough with fouled plugs and hard starting. I only bought 8 plugs, now 6 years old, and I no longer carry a spare.  

The 8th picture from the left in the link is mine. I lost the electrode following my EDM900 install and the subsequent pre-flight testing and runups. During the search for the electrode--borescope, oil change--there was evidence of it bouncing around in the cylinder before escaping. We didn't find the electrode but several A&P's were of the opinion that it escaped via the exhaust and that it was too large to get past the multiple piston rings and into the engine. I've had two oil changes since and there was nothing in the oil when strained. Judging by looking at the piston cylinder wall and marks in the top of the piston during the borescope, I would agree with the A&Ps assessments that it escaped through the exhaust. Tempest sent me a replacement plug but did not tell me if they were going to conduct a failure analysis.  I've got 60 hours on the new plug and close to 200 hours on the others. Time will tell regarding their longevity but I now have a spare, just in case. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by jonhop

[carusoam]

@jonhop also reported center electrode missing earlier in this thread...

We are up to three different pilots reporting, four different plugs (occasions)...

John pushed send before I did... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Jim Peace]

On 5/24/2018 at 2:54 PM, Tempest said:

Good afternoon,

My name is John Herman and I am VP Sales & Marketing with Tempest Aero Group. 

I am bumping this thread.  

Just had my annual done and was told by Daytona Aircraft Service (MSC) that I was missing an electrode in one of my finewire plugs.  I have been running 8 finewires that were installed 4 years and 370 hours ago.  

I told this to the tempest people at SNF yesterday and Vince the director of after market sales gave me a new plug that they had there at the show.  I already had DAS install a new one so I will keep it as a spare in my flyaway kit.

The big question is this, many of you who know me see that I have open checkbook mx policy on my plane.  What is the most reliable plug?  I am number 4 that we know of who is missing an electrode.

Is this common with all plugs and I should just not worry?  

[carusoam]

We have run out of spark plug suppliers, Jim.

The Best part... your engine monitor didn’t pick up on the anomaly?

So it kept working sort of...

I’m surprised Bendix doesn’t make aircraft spark plugs... I had a Bendix plug fall apart in my Expedition... within hours of installation...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

14 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The Best part... your engine monitor didn’t pick up on the anomaly?

Nothing that I could tell on the JPI 900 from the main screen...

I will download the data tomorrow for the before and after flights for the new plug to see if there is a difference...